[TheForge] Arc wekding advice sought

jerry Frost akfrosty at mtaonline.net
Wed Jun 3 16:24:57 EDT 2015 

We had some Certanium in the welding cabinet and yes, it was great for
welding dis similar stock. I got offered the transfer, requested with a
little pressure actually, to the foundations drill crew because I was a
trained welder fabricator. I'd never renewed my certifications once I
discovered how short a welder's professional life span was. It was before
folk even considered the smoke off the rods anything more dangerous that
tobacco.

Anyway, virtually everybody else drilling was at best able to run a
competent bead flat level or slightly uphand. Their solution to BAD welds
was to buy the strongest rod they could find. Ever try cleaning out a really
bad break that's liberally slobbered with SS rod? I'm really tempted to call
them idiots but they just didn't know what they were doing and relied on the
rod rather than good welds. So, I kept removing and hiding whatever super
rod someone had bought most recently. That's how I came to have Eutectic 680
on hand I THINK I have some Certainum too.

I don't know how the Certainium would work on a spring but the 680 did the
trick on a broken leaf in a semi tractor. A state low boy out picking up a
loader (I think) broke a leaf on a drive axle and the local maintenance shop
just brushed the break and welded it up with 680. An un scarfed but weld
unclean by good welding shop standards in one pass. The Anchorage shop left
it on the tractor until it was surplused maybe 5-6 years later. I was
stunned, you just can NOT weld leaf spring like that, no prep, no post weld
treatment, not even clean, he just ground the weld smooth, tightened the
clamps back up and dropped the tractor off the jack. 

Super rods. Expensive but live up to the price.

Frosty

-----Original Message-----
From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron
Childers
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 2:38 AM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Arc wekding advice sought

Certanium was the super rod back in the 70's- very expensive stick rods but
still in business

-----Original Message-----
From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Larry
Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 10:18 PM
To: 'Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Arc wekding advice sought

I still have several sizes of eutectic 680, taped up sealed in cans in a
cabinet. Just a few pounds left total. I use it with reverence. One of the
best dis-similar rods I have ever used, I lost 10# of it to hurricane sandy
and I'm still upset by it. Also their cast rod 2240( if I recall) was
excellent Larry Brown


-----Original Message-----
From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jerry
Frost
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 5:19 PM
To: mspencer at tallships.ca; 'Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Arc wekding advice sought

Mike: Is this going to be under load or will a failure put ANYBODY at risk?
If yes then do NOT do it. Hot bend new spring, harden and temper it. Find
something else.

Typical spring steel until recently has been 5160 for leaf and 5160 or 9260
for coil. Either has a lot of chrome in it so you need a rod that works well
with chrome. 7018 is pretty iffy on spring steel but is known to work.

The failures you're experiencing is at the boundary of the HAZ .(Heat
Affected Zone) What's happening is the arc is melting the base metal and
it's cooling too quickly over hardening the molybdenum in the spring steel.
Moly is an air hardening metal above a certain %. that's more than is in
spring steel but welding heat to solidus, let alone to black is way faster
than even a low %'s quench hardening speed.

Don't quote me but IIRC after hardening the spring shop brought the springs
to dull red and oil quenched them. That was barely visibly red in a dim
darkish shop, maybe 900-950f. ?

The only time I was routinely successful arc welding spring steel was using
Eutectic 680 rod. The designating number changed probably 25 years ago and
last time I checked it was $125.00/lb. with a 10lb. minimum. It's a high
alloy specialty rod. . . and $YIKES$

You might call Lincoln or a spring shop and see what if anything they
recommend for welding springs. I doubt they want the liability but you might
get lucky.

My recommendation if you plan on putting ANY load on them is think of
something different.

Frosty

-----Original Message-----
From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Spencer
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 3:33 PM
To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [TheForge] Arc wekding advice sought


Trying to make something from big-truck helper spring material.
That's the more or less Z- or chicane-shaped, maybe 2"x3" in the middle,
tapering to maybe 3"x3/4" at the long end, close to 4' overall length. 

I can make a very nice looking weld with 7018, DC straight polarity
(electrode negative).  But the base material under the weld seems to become
exceptionally brittle, such that the whole weld bead can be easily broken
off of the base metal, leaving a fine-grained, clean gray fracture.  What
appears to be a thin layer of the base metal adheres to the broken-off weld
bead.

   + Am I doing something wrong?

   + Is there a trick to welding this material?

   + Anybody know what this material is?  It cuts easily on my little
     bandsaw. 

   + Is welding to this kind of spring alloy known to be a problem or
     outright impossible without fancy industrial gear that I don't
     have?


- Mike

-- 
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~. 
                                                           /V\ 
mspencer at tallships.ca                                     /( )\
http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/                        ^^-^^
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