[TheForge] Seeking How To info...

Sun Apr 26 23:04:29 EDT 2015

Bruce: Even if Dave had a pristine Pexto roller on his bench $50.00 each
wouldn't cover Dave as a sub contractor. The person wanting to sell them
would have to have them zircon encrusted and he'd still go broke. (Sorry
about the Frank Zappa reference)

The problem with these is the run size and these aren't going to sell enough
in the product life to break even. It has a few fundamental problems: It's
Stainless meaning the tooling will have to be much more robust and wear
resistant. The machinery will have to be more powerful. Tooling will be
expensive on all counts.

So, lets assume I still lived close enough and had one of Dad's punch
presses in the garage, the 25ton and I'm not sure it'd do it but let's
suppose it would. Tooling male and female dies that roll the bead, (straight
forward) plus embossed whatever logo and stuff was to go on it, the tabs and
slots necessary for the catch. All one hit on 22ga. for 25tn.+ stamping
press. That tonnage is just for conversation sake as that's the heaviest
punch press Dad had.

Okay, we have the machinery and it's a one step stamping. Just buy the stock
sheared, the suppliers have the equipment and expertise, they charge by the
sheet not the cut. So, now we need tooling, that set of dies probably
would've cost a grand in Dad's day. Now however we have CNC and EDM mills so
it might not be too expensive, think coining die. Say a couple grand.

Now you have  system where you send the helper or one of your kids to the
supplier for a box of collar blanks. Your table is set on your dominant
hand's side and the blanks laid out in shallow boxes or trays so you can
grab one without looking. Off the back of the stamping press you have a
chute going to the finished part box and you're ready to rock. Turn the
press on and if it WAS Dad's 25tn and I was  operating I'd be cranking
collars ready to be rolled at a rate of 1/2 second each.

In 25-30 seconds there are 50 collars ready to be rolled and polished but if
you didn't bargain basement the dies they aren't going to take much if any
polishing. An hour or so on the lathe and the rolls from your old slip rolls
will turn the parts into collars.

Cool, you can indeed turn the things out for less than oh my god expensive
each. You only have maybe $5,000 pay back, I'm letting you use that old
punch press for cleaning and oiling it and a free collar and the run doesn't
last long enough to even blip my electric bill. So, lets say we can turn the
things out for under $3.00 ea.

Now the real problem with the product who wants a stainless steel dog
collar? How are you going too line the things? Nobody who loves their dog is
going to put a bare steel collar on their dog, no matter how smooth and nice
the finish. How well can it be adjusted? Too much and the free end on the
tabs becomes a hazard. Gotta make 10-20 sizes, how many each?

Will this product line ever sell more than a couple hundred? If they're
popular and a profit can be made in the $50.00 range someone will make one
out of silver, platinum, etc. and put a $2,000 price tag on it and you're
old news.

I tell folks trying to make a buck blacksmithing or other custom ornamental
metal crafts. We don't sell bargains, we sell bragging rights. Who invites
people over to talk about how little they spent on a painting? The railing
on the porch, etc? Nobody does, I've never met anyone outside of the
occasional person who brags about cheating someone. You invite the Jones's
over to rub their noses in the fact you can afford to spend THAT MUCH on a
thing.

I used to do leaf finial coat hooks as a standard demo and turned them out
with patter in about 7-8 minutes. $9.95 each, a set of four $29.95. I'd
maybe sell a couple hooks in a day. My associate at the time kept harping on
me I was charging too much, I sholdn't be charging more than $2.50 each. He
went to dinner I turned the card with the prices on it over and wrote $19.95
each. Set of four $74.95. I couldn't keep a hook on my table for people to
look at.

Bragging rights, people WANT to be able to brag about how much the hand made
(whatever) cost them. WE all grew up with mass produced everything, a little
one of a kind somethings are special to us.

The only profit I can see for metal dog collars is high end jewelry for
precious dog's person to show off.

Wow, that sure turned into a long ramble didn't it?

Good call Dave.

Frosty

-----Original Message-----
From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce
.
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 4:55 PM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Seeking How To info...

Dave,

Good bid, but you need to alter the marketing strategy to make  a $50 "dog"
collar attractive to the clientele:

http://diamondcelebrities.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/dog-man.jpg?w=588&h=45
5

Also, you probably KNOW folks who have the Pexto machines collecting dust.
I have three of them myself, though probably not exactly what you'd need.
Borrow these from a buddy and your investment goes down, though you might
have to add a case of beer for your buddy in the bid price.  You still might
have to machine dies, but on a lathe that might not be so bad.

Meanwhile, for those interested, here's a video I found useful when I was
trying this technique for a project.  This approach worked well for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_ZpDDKkPw
I also watched something like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuILLaFSLNI

Bruce
NJ

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:

> Thank everyone for your input and suggestions. Below is my reply to 
> the shop that asked me to bid on this job.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------
>
> First, one needs a used Pexto machine (bead roller) ($200 - $300?) I 
> found some on e-bay.
> *http://tinyurl.com/l73249w <http://tinyurl.com/l73249w>*
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/pd2sxgq <http://tinyurl.com/pd2sxgq>*
>
> They have a bunch more but this is just to give you the idea.
>
> Then one needs the proper dies for the machine. I suppose that we 
> could turn our own dies once we figure out the profiles. It's going to 
> take one set of dies to form the bead then another set to close the bead.
> Time on the lathe, 8 hours?
>
> Then you have to learn how to use the machine to produce the product 
> that you want. Scrap blanks and practice time.
>
> Then you need to buy a sheet of 22 ga. stainless ($300. range?) Then 
> you need to lay out and shear up the 22 ga.? stainless. (shear, not
> plasma)
> If all of that works, then you need to punch the slots for the buckle 
> (like a belt) That means buying the correct punch for the iron worker 
> ($50.?) More labor time, layout, shear, punch, dress edges. 4 - 8 
> hours.
>
> Now you have a blank, you will want to form the bead on each side of 
> the blank.
> If it all went perfectly you would still need to run each blank 
> through the machine 4 times x 50 pieces... (time?) Then polish the 
> whole thing. (time?) Then roll into shape of a dog collar without 
> squishing the beads. (time?) And we haven't even done the hook / lock 
> / attachment / whatever to keep the thing closed. (time?)
>
> Finally, how much can you get for a stainless steel dog collar?
> Just pulling a number out of the air, let's say $50. each x 50 pieces 
> = $2500*. * I don't think that anyone would pay $50 wholesale for one 
> of these.
>
> In my opinion, even if everything went together smoothly, one couldn't 
> make a profit making 50 pieces for $2500.00,, even if you could get 
> the client to pay $50 each.
>
> Thanks for the opportunity to bid, but I think that I have to pass on 
> this job.
>
> dave
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
>
> > Jerry & Bruce,
> > I have done the hammer the edge around a wire thing on several 
> > copper fountain bowls and some small 'art' pieces.
> > It's more work than I would want to do for 50 pieces of stainless, 
> > albeit thin.
> > The Pexto machine sounds like the way to go. Too bad that I don't 
> > have
> one.
> > I do however have a lathe and access to 7 more. I could make the 
> > rollers but I would have to make a machine to hold them. That might 
> > be fun. It would have to be hand crank.
> > I saw some illustrations of progressive dies on the internet but 
> > they
> were
> > for a press
> > rather than a roller. In this application I think that a roller is 
> > the only way to go.
> > I don't have any idea about unit price because I don't have the 
> > tooling readily available.
> > The flash in the far back reaches of my cluttered mind flashed on 
> > $20 -
> > $50 each but
> > that sounds ridiculous. Yes, I know that you can never base a price 
> > on what "you" think sounds too high or too low. It was just a flash.
> > Bruce, I will try to find those books. If I considered making the 
> > dies, what would the profile look like?
> > You could e-mail a drawing to me dave at magichammer.net  because the 
> > robot won't let us post pictures on TheForge, although we could post 
> > it here, http://www.shutterfly.com/ I am embarrassed to say that I 
> > have never used the shutterfly site......
> >
> > dave m
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:54 AM, jerry Frost 
> > <akfrosty at mtaonline.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> In dad's shop we called it "rolling a bead." Pexto makes a set of 
> >> dies
> for
> >> their rolls. They're similar to the fluting dies but are more 
> >> complex
> and
> >> or
> >> two pass per bead to close it. If you have access to a lathe you 
> >> could make a set to roll both edges at the same time making guiding 
> >> the strip much easier and cuts the steps in half. Unless I already 
> >> had a bead roller
> set
> >> up
> >> I wouldn't bid on 50, too small a run to break even let alone turn 
> >> a profit.
> >>
> >> Looking back on Dad's bidding process I'd guess the break even for 
> >> a two pass per side process like that at around 1,000 units IF you 
> >> pay
> yourself
> >> minimum wage. Do you have power rolls, something you could just 
> >> feed blanks?
> >> If you could roll them fast enough you might not take too bad a 
> >> beating
> on
> >> making the tooling, provided you have your own lathe.
> >>
> >> Heck, if you have a lathe sell them the tooling, you'd make a buck.
> >>
> >> How much are you thinking to bid per unit Dave?
> >>
> >> Jer
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf 
> >> Of Dave Mudge
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 9:46 PM
> >> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> >> Subject: [TheForge] Seeking How To info...
> >>
> >> looking for "How To" information. specifically, how to roll the 
> >> bead on the edges of this dog collar. I have a chance to bid on 
> >> making 50 of these
> of
> >> stainless steel. 2" wide x 18" circumference. any information at 
> >> all
> will
> >> be
> >> greatly appreciated...
> >> click here for picture of dog collar http://tinyurl.com/mmpa3sw
> >>
> >> dave m
> >> listmom for TheForge
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> TheForge mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
> >>
> >> TheForge mail list group photo site is http://www.shutterfly.com
> >> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> >> Password: anvil
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this 
> >> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security
> Agency
> > may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They 
> > may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have 
> > no recourse nor protection.
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security 
> Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. 
> They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You 
> have no recourse nor protection.
> ______________________________________________________________
> TheForge mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>
> TheForge mail list group photo site is http://www.shutterfly.com
> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> Password: anvil
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
______________________________________________________________
TheForge mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net

TheForge mail list group photo site is
http://www.shutterfly.com
Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
Password: anvil

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html