[TheForge] Seeking How To info...

[Bruce .]

Frosty,
I don't think you clicked on the link ...

Bruce
NJ

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 11:04 PM, jerry Frost <akfrosty at mtaonline.net>
wrote:

> Bruce: Even if Dave had a pristine Pexto roller on his bench $50.00 each
> wouldn't cover Dave as a sub contractor. The person wanting to sell them
> would have to have them zircon encrusted and he'd still go broke. (Sorry
> about the Frank Zappa reference)
>
> The problem with these is the run size and these aren't going to sell
> enough
> in the product life to break even. It has a few fundamental problems: It's
> Stainless meaning the tooling will have to be much more robust and wear
> resistant. The machinery will have to be more powerful. Tooling will be
> expensive on all counts.
>
> So, lets assume I still lived close enough and had one of Dad's punch
> presses in the garage, the 25ton and I'm not sure it'd do it but let's
> suppose it would. Tooling male and female dies that roll the bead,
> (straight
> forward) plus embossed whatever logo and stuff was to go on it, the tabs
> and
> slots necessary for the catch. All one hit on 22ga. for 25tn.+ stamping
> press. That tonnage is just for conversation sake as that's the heaviest
> punch press Dad had.
>
> Okay, we have the machinery and it's a one step stamping. Just buy the
> stock
> sheared, the suppliers have the equipment and expertise, they charge by the
> sheet not the cut. So, now we need tooling, that set of dies probably
> would've cost a grand in Dad's day. Now however we have CNC and EDM mills
> so
> it might not be too expensive, think coining die. Say a couple grand.
>
> Now you have  system where you send the helper or one of your kids to the
> supplier for a box of collar blanks. Your table is set on your dominant
> hand's side and the blanks laid out in shallow boxes or trays so you can
> grab one without looking. Off the back of the stamping press you have a
> chute going to the finished part box and you're ready to rock. Turn the
> press on and if it WAS Dad's 25tn and I was  operating I'd be cranking
> collars ready to be rolled at a rate of 1/2 second each.
>
> In 25-30 seconds there are 50 collars ready to be rolled and polished but
> if
> you didn't bargain basement the dies they aren't going to take much if any
> polishing. An hour or so on the lathe and the rolls from your old slip
> rolls
> will turn the parts into collars.
>
> Cool, you can indeed turn the things out for less than oh my god expensive
> each. You only have maybe $5,000 pay back, I'm letting you use that old
> punch press for cleaning and oiling it and a free collar and the run
> doesn't
> last long enough to even blip my electric bill. So, lets say we can turn
> the
> things out for under $3.00 ea.
>
> Now the real problem with the product who wants a stainless steel dog
> collar? How are you going too line the things? Nobody who loves their dog
> is
> going to put a bare steel collar on their dog, no matter how smooth and
> nice
> the finish. How well can it be adjusted? Too much and the free end on the
> tabs becomes a hazard. Gotta make 10-20 sizes, how many each?
>
> Will this product line ever sell more than a couple hundred? If they're
> popular and a profit can be made in the $50.00 range someone will make one
> out of silver, platinum, etc. and put a $2,000 price tag on it and you're
> old news.
>
> I tell folks trying to make a buck blacksmithing or other custom ornamental
> metal crafts. We don't sell bargains, we sell bragging rights. Who invites
> people over to talk about how little they spent on a painting? The railing
> on the porch, etc? Nobody does, I've never met anyone outside of the
> occasional person who brags about cheating someone. You invite the Jones's
> over to rub their noses in the fact you can afford to spend THAT MUCH on a
> thing.
>
> I used to do leaf finial coat hooks as a standard demo and turned them out
> with patter in about 7-8 minutes. $9.95 each, a set of four $29.95. I'd
> maybe sell a couple hooks in a day. My associate at the time kept harping
> on
> me I was charging too much, I sholdn't be charging more than $2.50 each. He
> went to dinner I turned the card with the prices on it over and wrote
> $19.95
> each. Set of four $74.95. I couldn't keep a hook on my table for people to
> look at.
>
> Bragging rights, people WANT to be able to brag about how much the hand
> made
> (whatever) cost them. WE all grew up with mass produced everything, a
> little
> one of a kind somethings are special to us.
>
> The only profit I can see for metal dog collars is high end jewelry for
> precious dog's person to show off.
>
> Wow, that sure turned into a long ramble didn't it?
>
> Good call Dave.
>
> Frosty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> Bruce
> .
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 4:55 PM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Seeking How To info...
>
> Dave,
>
> Good bid, but you need to alter the marketing strategy to make  a $50 "dog"
> collar attractive to the clientele:
>
>
> http://diamondcelebrities.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/dog-man.jpg?w=588&h=45
> 5
>
> Also, you probably KNOW folks who have the Pexto machines collecting dust.
> I have three of them myself, though probably not exactly what you'd need.
> Borrow these from a buddy and your investment goes down, though you might
> have to add a case of beer for your buddy in the bid price.  You still
> might
> have to machine dies, but on a lathe that might not be so bad.
>
> Meanwhile, for those interested, here's a video I found useful when I was
> trying this technique for a project.  This approach worked well for me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_ZpDDKkPw
> I also watched something like this one:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuILLaFSLNI
>
>
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
>
> > Thank everyone for your input and suggestions. Below is my reply to
> > the shop that asked me to bid on this job.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------------------
> >
> > First, one needs a used Pexto machine (bead roller) ($200 - $300?) I
> > found some on e-bay.
> > *http://tinyurl.com/l73249w <http://tinyurl.com/l73249w>*
> >
> > *http://tinyurl.com/pd2sxgq <http://tinyurl.com/pd2sxgq>*
> >
> > They have a bunch more but this is just to give you the idea.
> >
> > Then one needs the proper dies for the machine. I suppose that we
> > could turn our own dies once we figure out the profiles. It's going to
> > take one set of dies to form the bead then another set to close the bead.
> > Time on the lathe, 8 hours?
> >
> > Then you have to learn how to use the machine to produce the product
> > that you want. Scrap blanks and practice time.
> >
> > Then you need to buy a sheet of 22 ga. stainless ($300. range?) Then
> > you need to lay out and shear up the 22 ga.? stainless. (shear, not
> > plasma)
> > If all of that works, then you need to punch the slots for the buckle
> > (like a belt) That means buying the correct punch for the iron worker
> > ($50.?) More labor time, layout, shear, punch, dress edges. 4 - 8
> > hours.
> >
> > Now you have a blank, you will want to form the bead on each side of
> > the blank.
> > If it all went perfectly you would still need to run each blank
> > through the machine 4 times x 50 pieces... (time?) Then polish the
> > whole thing. (time?) Then roll into shape of a dog collar without
> > squishing the beads. (time?) And we haven't even done the hook / lock
> > / attachment / whatever to keep the thing closed. (time?)
> >
> > Finally, how much can you get for a stainless steel dog collar?
> > Just pulling a number out of the air, let's say $50. each x 50 pieces
> > = $2500*. * I don't think that anyone would pay $50 wholesale for one
> > of these.
> >
> > In my opinion, even if everything went together smoothly, one couldn't
> > make a profit making 50 pieces for $2500.00,, even if you could get
> > the client to pay $50 each.
> >
> > Thanks for the opportunity to bid, but I think that I have to pass on
> > this job.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Jerry & Bruce,
> > > I have done the hammer the edge around a wire thing on several
> > > copper fountain bowls and some small 'art' pieces.
> > > It's more work than I would want to do for 50 pieces of stainless,
> > > albeit thin.
> > > The Pexto machine sounds like the way to go. Too bad that I don't
> > > have
> > one.
> > > I do however have a lathe and access to 7 more. I could make the
> > > rollers but I would have to make a machine to hold them. That might
> > > be fun. It would have to be hand crank.
> > > I saw some illustrations of progressive dies on the internet but
> > > they
> > were
> > > for a press
> > > rather than a roller. In this application I think that a roller is
> > > the only way to go.
> > > I don't have any idea about unit price because I don't have the
> > > tooling readily available.
> > > The flash in the far back reaches of my cluttered mind flashed on
> > > $20 -
> > > $50 each but
> > > that sounds ridiculous. Yes, I know that you can never base a price
> > > on what "you" think sounds too high or too low. It was just a flash.
> > > Bruce, I will try to find those books. If I considered making the
> > > dies, what would the profile look like?
> > > You could e-mail a drawing to me dave at magichammer.net  because the
> > > robot won't let us post pictures on TheForge, although we could post
> > > it here, http://www.shutterfly.com/ I am embarrassed to say that I
> > > have never used the shutterfly site......
> > >
> > > dave m
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:54 AM, jerry Frost
> > > <akfrosty at mtaonline.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> In dad's shop we called it "rolling a bead." Pexto makes a set of
> > >> dies
> > for
> > >> their rolls. They're similar to the fluting dies but are more
> > >> complex
> > and
> > >> or
> > >> two pass per bead to close it. If you have access to a lathe you
> > >> could make a set to roll both edges at the same time making guiding
> > >> the strip much easier and cuts the steps in half. Unless I already
> > >> had a bead roller
> > set
> > >> up
> > >> I wouldn't bid on 50, too small a run to break even let alone turn
> > >> a profit.
> > >>
> > >> Looking back on Dad's bidding process I'd guess the break even for
> > >> a two pass per side process like that at around 1,000 units IF you
> > >> pay
> > yourself
> > >> minimum wage. Do you have power rolls, something you could just
> > >> feed blanks?
> > >> If you could roll them fast enough you might not take too bad a
> > >> beating
> > on
> > >> making the tooling, provided you have your own lathe.
> > >>
> > >> Heck, if you have a lathe sell them the tooling, you'd make a buck.
> > >>
> > >> How much are you thinking to bid per unit Dave?
> > >>
> > >> Jer
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf
> > >> Of Dave Mudge
> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 9:46 PM
> > >> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> > >> Subject: [TheForge] Seeking How To info...
> > >>
> > >> looking for "How To" information. specifically, how to roll the
> > >> bead on the edges of this dog collar. I have a chance to bid on
> > >> making 50 of these
> > of
> > >> stainless steel. 2" wide x 18" circumference. any information at
> > >> all
> > will
> > >> be
> > >> greatly appreciated...
> > >> click here for picture of dog collar http://tinyurl.com/mmpa3sw
> > >>
> > >> dave m
> > >> listmom for TheForge
> > >>
> > >>
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