[TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
Jerry Frost
akfrosty at mtaonline.net
Wed Jun 15 15:19:43 EDT 2011
Cool, I don't think I've heard anything about Graphene that gave me an idea
of what it is. Itll make for some good reading and noodling. Thanks.
I don't have any idea how hear resistant it is so I have no idea what kind
of use it'd be in a refractory shield. Maybe an application patent there eh?
Jer
----- Original Message -----
From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:22 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
> I'd forgotten about that stuff Jerry...wonder how high it will go?
> I recall some of the chrome oxides are pretty high temp too.
>
> So,,Graphene, zirconium oxide and cornstarch?
>
> Graphene
> On Jun 14, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
>
>> Zirconium oxide Pete. Though it's a ceramic not a salt but it has a
>> REALLY
>> high melting temp and a high IR albedo. I coat my forges with it by the
>> brand name ITC-100. It's darned flux resistant and I've had molten steel
>> laying on it to no ill effect.
>>
>> Zirconium is the first thing I thought of upon reading the article.
>>
>> Jer
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:11 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course!
>>>>
>>>> Oxygen is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Silicone is a solid
>>>> melting at about 2500*F. Silicon dioxide (aka quartz or silica) is a
>>>> solid melting at about 3000*F - a covalent compound of the three
>>>> atoms. And there are much more dramatic examples than this.
>>>>
>>>> Sodium is a low-melting metal (~208*F). Chlorine is a gas at room
>>>> temperature. Sodium chloride is a solid salt melting around 1500*F.
>>>>
>>>> The difference is that metals like tin and lead, typically don't
>>>> combine chemically -- forming new molecules or salts -- whereas oxides
>>>> like quartz are distinctly new entities, molecules. In some respects,
>>>> a molecule is like an extended atom -- the electrons are shared
>>>> between the nuclei. Salts are rather the opposite -- the electrons
>>>> are not shared, but rather passed completely from one to the other,
>>>> resulting in an electric charge that keeps the ions together (unless
>>>> stabilized by a polar solvent, like water). Hence, property changes
>>>> can be pretty dramatic.
>>>
>>> Then is there a handy, refractory salt of high melting temperature
>>> metals
>>> or elements?
>>>>
>>>> A couple more thoughts:
>>>>
>>>> A material can "resist" energy (i.e., photons) by reflecting it or
>>>> transmitting it (i.e., being transparent to it). In addition to
>>>> reflecting energy, a material can fluoresce -- absorb photons of one
>>>> energy level and emit those of a lower energy level. All these
>>>> mechanisms could account for a substance surviving in the presence of
>>>> intense energy. Not all of them are useful for all purposes.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> In the interesting model you propose, the functional limit is the
>>>>> temperature at which the "glass" breaks down...even if the carbon core
>>>>> were to remain stable up to then.
>>>>> The magical plastic alleges to exceed the limits of it's constituent
>>>>> elements incredibly ( literally).
>>>>> In metal alloys, a combination of elements tends to lower the melting
>>>>> temperature.
>>>>> Are there high temperature compounds where the opposite is
>>>>> dramatically
>>>>> true?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather than wonder about this magical substance that notably has
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> been commercialized, why not brainstorm to find something or some
>>>>>> things that fill some of those functions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are, for example, a number of ways to resist heat. Most
>>>>>> refractories (graphite being a notable exception) that resist heat by
>>>>>> virtue of high melting point and being oxides (impossible to further
>>>>>> oxidize). Others are ablative -- sacrificial. Graphite almost falls
>>>>>> into the last category, or maybe does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suppose you try to use bituminous coal as a refractory. Get it hot
>>>>>> enough and it expands into breeze (coke). It fails at that point
>>>>>> because it starts to burn, but what if it were somehow protected from
>>>>>> burning by a refractory "glass" layer. Hence, composite something
>>>>>> like bituminous coal with some sort of high-temperature
>>>>>> oxidation-resistant substance. What's neat about this is that the
>>>>>> breeze would then act as an insulator, protecting what's beneath.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What you want to do is to form your "clinker" right on the surface of
>>>>>> the breeze. So, this all gives rise to the question of why
>>>>>> bituminous coal does not already act as a refractory. I suspect that
>>>>>> probably relates to properties of the breeze vs. the "glass". Maybe
>>>>>> the glass won't "wet" the carbon? Maybe the continual degassing of
>>>>>> the coal breaks the glass layer, making it ineffective as a "flux"?
>>>>>> Maybe the glass sits on the outside of the breeze only, leaving the
>>>>>> open "gas bubbles" exposed to the air blast? Solve this problem and
>>>>>> you might develop. Even light microscopy could help determine the
>>>>>> facts, and scanning electron microscopy would probably solve it in no
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, graphite is mainly of interest because of it's high
>>>>>> melting
>>>>>> point. Perhaps the equivalent behavior could be obtained using more
>>>>>> standard ceramics. But the "plastic" nature of our hypothetical
>>>>>> material is now conceivably a problem. How does one form a ceramic
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> a plastic manner? Well, cement comes to mind -- castable or rammable
>>>>>> refractories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All just brainstorming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:11 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's hard to refrain from thinking of different applications for
>>>>>>> it....
>>>>>>> sorta like relations with a harbor Fright catalogue when i was
>>>>>>> poorer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I posted a note to uk.rec.sheds (chiefly because someone had used
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> word "gubbins" and the Starlite guy recounted calling his product
>>>>>>>> "gubbins" when first encountered) and had this reply:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: bobharvey <robertharvey at my-deja.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sheddi Taxidermy
>>>>>>>> Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah yes. Starlite. I recall reading almost exactly that article
>>>>>>>> some 20 years ago in some engineering journal. It included a
>>>>>>>> photo sequence of someone stirring molten steel with a stick,
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> putting the stick in a bucket of water without the normal
>>>>>>>> dangerous consequences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I always assumed it was all true, unlike the "combustion engine
>>>>>>>> that runs on water" man, who used to pop up occasionally. 'cos
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> was clear that that was bollocks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it's bogus, at least it has staying power. If it's not, why
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>> I have some?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
>>>>>>>> /V\
>>>>>>>> mspencer at tallships.ca /( )\
>>>>>>>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>> NJ
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bruce
>>>> NJ
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>>
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