[TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
Bruce Freeman
freemab222 at gmail.com
Thu Jun 16 09:26:46 EDT 2011
Frosty,
I can't tell from this whether you NOW know what graphene is, so I'll
tell you anyway.
Despite my being a chemist, this is a layman's description, as this is
NOT my field of chemistry.
As you probably know, diamond is crystalline carbon, in which each
atom is connected to four others in a tetrahedral configuration (i.e.,
the OTHER four carbons are at the corners of a tetrahedron). Very
strong, very hard, no free electrons so completely transparent.
By contrast, graphite is crystalline carbon, in which each atom is
connected to only three others in a hexagonal array (i.e., honeycomb
or chickenwire shape). This is even stronger than diamond within the
plane. However, the myriad of layers of carbon are only held together
by their electronic interaction and whatever stuff that attracts to
between the planes. There are LOTS of loose electrons floating
around, so virtually any wavelength of visible light can be absorbed,
rendering the stuff black.
Now in principal, one could separate those stacks of planes into
shorter stacks of planes, and that's what people have been doing in
making "graphene". "Graphene" seems to mean a single plane of
carbons, but work in t his direction also includes intermediate
crystals consisting of a stack of relatively few planes of graphene.
I believe some researchers have made single-planes graphene in some
way or other. Recently I read that someone had found a simple means
of separating graphite into few-plane graphene "stacks" by merely
putting it into a "solvent" of appropriate type. The details escape
me, but it makes perfect sense.
IBM seems to be on top of the use of this stuff for electronic
applications, and have recently made a "chip" on graphene-like
substrate, IIRC.
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Jerry Frost <akfrosty at mtaonline.net> wrote:
> Cool, I don't think I've heard anything about Graphene that gave me an idea
> of what it is. Itll make for some good reading and noodling. Thanks.
>
> I don't have any idea how hear resistant it is so I have no idea what kind
> of use it'd be in a refractory shield. Maybe an application patent there eh?
>
> Jer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>
>
>> I'd forgotten about that stuff Jerry...wonder how high it will go?
>> I recall some of the chrome oxides are pretty high temp too.
>>
>> So,,Graphene, zirconium oxide and cornstarch?
>>
>> Graphene
>> On Jun 14, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
>>
>>> Zirconium oxide Pete. Though it's a ceramic not a salt but it has a
>>> REALLY
>>> high melting temp and a high IR albedo. I coat my forges with it by the
>>> brand name ITC-100. It's darned flux resistant and I've had molten steel
>>> laying on it to no ill effect.
>>>
>>> Zirconium is the first thing I thought of upon reading the article.
>>>
>>> Jer
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:11 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course!
>>>>>
>>>>> Oxygen is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Silicone is a solid
>>>>> melting at about 2500*F. Silicon dioxide (aka quartz or silica) is a
>>>>> solid melting at about 3000*F - a covalent compound of the three
>>>>> atoms. And there are much more dramatic examples than this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sodium is a low-melting metal (~208*F). Chlorine is a gas at room
>>>>> temperature. Sodium chloride is a solid salt melting around 1500*F.
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference is that metals like tin and lead, typically don't
>>>>> combine chemically -- forming new molecules or salts -- whereas oxides
>>>>> like quartz are distinctly new entities, molecules. In some respects,
>>>>> a molecule is like an extended atom -- the electrons are shared
>>>>> between the nuclei. Salts are rather the opposite -- the electrons
>>>>> are not shared, but rather passed completely from one to the other,
>>>>> resulting in an electric charge that keeps the ions together (unless
>>>>> stabilized by a polar solvent, like water). Hence, property changes
>>>>> can be pretty dramatic.
>>>>
>>>> Then is there a handy, refractory salt of high melting temperature
>>>> metals
>>>> or elements?
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple more thoughts:
>>>>>
>>>>> A material can "resist" energy (i.e., photons) by reflecting it or
>>>>> transmitting it (i.e., being transparent to it). In addition to
>>>>> reflecting energy, a material can fluoresce -- absorb photons of one
>>>>> energy level and emit those of a lower energy level. All these
>>>>> mechanisms could account for a substance surviving in the presence of
>>>>> intense energy. Not all of them are useful for all purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> In the interesting model you propose, the functional limit is the
>>>>>> temperature at which the "glass" breaks down...even if the carbon core
>>>>>> were to remain stable up to then.
>>>>>> The magical plastic alleges to exceed the limits of it's constituent
>>>>>> elements incredibly ( literally).
>>>>>> In metal alloys, a combination of elements tends to lower the melting
>>>>>> temperature.
>>>>>> Are there high temperature compounds where the opposite is
>>>>>> dramatically
>>>>>> true?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rather than wonder about this magical substance that notably has
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> been commercialized, why not brainstorm to find something or some
>>>>>>> things that fill some of those functions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are, for example, a number of ways to resist heat. Most
>>>>>>> refractories (graphite being a notable exception) that resist heat by
>>>>>>> virtue of high melting point and being oxides (impossible to further
>>>>>>> oxidize). Others are ablative -- sacrificial. Graphite almost falls
>>>>>>> into the last category, or maybe does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suppose you try to use bituminous coal as a refractory. Get it hot
>>>>>>> enough and it expands into breeze (coke). It fails at that point
>>>>>>> because it starts to burn, but what if it were somehow protected from
>>>>>>> burning by a refractory "glass" layer. Hence, composite something
>>>>>>> like bituminous coal with some sort of high-temperature
>>>>>>> oxidation-resistant substance. What's neat about this is that the
>>>>>>> breeze would then act as an insulator, protecting what's beneath.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What you want to do is to form your "clinker" right on the surface of
>>>>>>> the breeze. So, this all gives rise to the question of why
>>>>>>> bituminous coal does not already act as a refractory. I suspect that
>>>>>>> probably relates to properties of the breeze vs. the "glass". Maybe
>>>>>>> the glass won't "wet" the carbon? Maybe the continual degassing of
>>>>>>> the coal breaks the glass layer, making it ineffective as a "flux"?
>>>>>>> Maybe the glass sits on the outside of the breeze only, leaving the
>>>>>>> open "gas bubbles" exposed to the air blast? Solve this problem and
>>>>>>> you might develop. Even light microscopy could help determine the
>>>>>>> facts, and scanning electron microscopy would probably solve it in no
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, graphite is mainly of interest because of it's high
>>>>>>> melting
>>>>>>> point. Perhaps the equivalent behavior could be obtained using more
>>>>>>> standard ceramics. But the "plastic" nature of our hypothetical
>>>>>>> material is now conceivably a problem. How does one form a ceramic
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> a plastic manner? Well, cement comes to mind -- castable or rammable
>>>>>>> refractories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All just brainstorming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:11 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's hard to refrain from thinking of different applications for
>>>>>>>> it....
>>>>>>>> sorta like relations with a harbor Fright catalogue when i was
>>>>>>>> poorer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I posted a note to uk.rec.sheds (chiefly because someone had used
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> word "gubbins" and the Starlite guy recounted calling his product
>>>>>>>>> "gubbins" when first encountered) and had this reply:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: bobharvey <robertharvey at my-deja.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sheddi Taxidermy
>>>>>>>>> Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah yes. Starlite. I recall reading almost exactly that article
>>>>>>>>> some 20 years ago in some engineering journal. It included a
>>>>>>>>> photo sequence of someone stirring molten steel with a stick,
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> putting the stick in a bucket of water without the normal
>>>>>>>>> dangerous consequences.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always assumed it was all true, unlike the "combustion engine
>>>>>>>>> that runs on water" man, who used to pop up occasionally. 'cos
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> was clear that that was bollocks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it's bogus, at least it has staying power. If it's not, why
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> I have some?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
>>>>>>>>> /V\
>>>>>>>>> mspencer at tallships.ca /( )\
>>>>>>>>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>> NJ
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>> NJ
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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--
Bruce
NJ
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