[TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
Bruce Freeman
freemab222 at gmail.com
Thu Jun 16 09:11:57 EDT 2011
So it is. I'm SURE I was reading *F in some of those articles. I
just missed it was *C in this case.
So that's ~4900*F. Much different.
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:50 PM, James Binnion <jbin at well.com> wrote:
> that is 2700 C not F
> On Jun 15, 2011, at 4:45 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>
>> Wikipedeia is a good source:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirconia
>> MP ~2700F. Doesn't sound impressive, but
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 1:22 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>> I'd forgotten about that stuff Jerry...wonder how high it will go?
>>> I recall some of the chrome oxides are pretty high temp too.
>>>
>>> So,,Graphene, zirconium oxide and cornstarch?
>>>
>>> Graphene
>>> On Jun 14, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
>>>
>>>> Zirconium oxide Pete. Though it's a ceramic not a salt but it has a REALLY
>>>> high melting temp and a high IR albedo. I coat my forges with it by the
>>>> brand name ITC-100. It's darned flux resistant and I've had molten steel
>>>> laying on it to no ill effect.
>>>>
>>>> Zirconium is the first thing I thought of upon reading the article.
>>>>
>>>> Jer
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:11 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oxygen is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Silicone is a solid
>>>>>> melting at about 2500*F. Silicon dioxide (aka quartz or silica) is a
>>>>>> solid melting at about 3000*F - a covalent compound of the three
>>>>>> atoms. And there are much more dramatic examples than this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sodium is a low-melting metal (~208*F). Chlorine is a gas at room
>>>>>> temperature. Sodium chloride is a solid salt melting around 1500*F.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The difference is that metals like tin and lead, typically don't
>>>>>> combine chemically -- forming new molecules or salts -- whereas oxides
>>>>>> like quartz are distinctly new entities, molecules. In some respects,
>>>>>> a molecule is like an extended atom -- the electrons are shared
>>>>>> between the nuclei. Salts are rather the opposite -- the electrons
>>>>>> are not shared, but rather passed completely from one to the other,
>>>>>> resulting in an electric charge that keeps the ions together (unless
>>>>>> stabilized by a polar solvent, like water). Hence, property changes
>>>>>> can be pretty dramatic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then is there a handy, refractory salt of high melting temperature metals
>>>>> or elements?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple more thoughts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A material can "resist" energy (i.e., photons) by reflecting it or
>>>>>> transmitting it (i.e., being transparent to it). In addition to
>>>>>> reflecting energy, a material can fluoresce -- absorb photons of one
>>>>>> energy level and emit those of a lower energy level. All these
>>>>>> mechanisms could account for a substance surviving in the presence of
>>>>>> intense energy. Not all of them are useful for all purposes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> In the interesting model you propose, the functional limit is the
>>>>>>> temperature at which the "glass" breaks down...even if the carbon core
>>>>>>> were to remain stable up to then.
>>>>>>> The magical plastic alleges to exceed the limits of it's constituent
>>>>>>> elements incredibly ( literally).
>>>>>>> In metal alloys, a combination of elements tends to lower the melting
>>>>>>> temperature.
>>>>>>> Are there high temperature compounds where the opposite is dramatically
>>>>>>> true?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rather than wonder about this magical substance that notably has never
>>>>>>>> been commercialized, why not brainstorm to find something or some
>>>>>>>> things that fill some of those functions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are, for example, a number of ways to resist heat. Most
>>>>>>>> refractories (graphite being a notable exception) that resist heat by
>>>>>>>> virtue of high melting point and being oxides (impossible to further
>>>>>>>> oxidize). Others are ablative -- sacrificial. Graphite almost falls
>>>>>>>> into the last category, or maybe does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Suppose you try to use bituminous coal as a refractory. Get it hot
>>>>>>>> enough and it expands into breeze (coke). It fails at that point
>>>>>>>> because it starts to burn, but what if it were somehow protected from
>>>>>>>> burning by a refractory "glass" layer. Hence, composite something
>>>>>>>> like bituminous coal with some sort of high-temperature
>>>>>>>> oxidation-resistant substance. What's neat about this is that the
>>>>>>>> breeze would then act as an insulator, protecting what's beneath.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What you want to do is to form your "clinker" right on the surface of
>>>>>>>> the breeze. So, this all gives rise to the question of why
>>>>>>>> bituminous coal does not already act as a refractory. I suspect that
>>>>>>>> probably relates to properties of the breeze vs. the "glass". Maybe
>>>>>>>> the glass won't "wet" the carbon? Maybe the continual degassing of
>>>>>>>> the coal breaks the glass layer, making it ineffective as a "flux"?
>>>>>>>> Maybe the glass sits on the outside of the breeze only, leaving the
>>>>>>>> open "gas bubbles" exposed to the air blast? Solve this problem and
>>>>>>>> you might develop. Even light microscopy could help determine the
>>>>>>>> facts, and scanning electron microscopy would probably solve it in no
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, graphite is mainly of interest because of it's high melting
>>>>>>>> point. Perhaps the equivalent behavior could be obtained using more
>>>>>>>> standard ceramics. But the "plastic" nature of our hypothetical
>>>>>>>> material is now conceivably a problem. How does one form a ceramic in
>>>>>>>> a plastic manner? Well, cement comes to mind -- castable or rammable
>>>>>>>> refractories.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All just brainstorming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:11 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's hard to refrain from thinking of different applications for
>>>>>>>>> it....
>>>>>>>>> sorta like relations with a harbor Fright catalogue when i was
>>>>>>>>> poorer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I posted a note to uk.rec.sheds (chiefly because someone had used the
>>>>>>>>>> word "gubbins" and the Starlite guy recounted calling his product
>>>>>>>>>> "gubbins" when first encountered) and had this reply:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: bobharvey <robertharvey at my-deja.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sheddi Taxidermy
>>>>>>>>>> Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah yes. Starlite. I recall reading almost exactly that article
>>>>>>>>>> some 20 years ago in some engineering journal. It included a
>>>>>>>>>> photo sequence of someone stirring molten steel with a stick, then
>>>>>>>>>> putting the stick in a bucket of water without the normal
>>>>>>>>>> dangerous consequences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I always assumed it was all true, unlike the "combustion engine
>>>>>>>>>> that runs on water" man, who used to pop up occasionally. 'cos It
>>>>>>>>>> was clear that that was bollocks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If it's bogus, at least it has staying power. If it's not, why can't
>>>>>>>>>> I have some?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
>>>>>>>>>> /V\
>>>>>>>>>> mspencer at tallships.ca /( )\
>>>>>>>>>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>> NJ
>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>> NJ
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce
>> NJ
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>
> James Binnion
> jbin at well.com
>
>
>
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--
Bruce
NJ
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