[TheForge] Fw: Welding preheat

Fri Sep 17 18:03:31 EDT 2010

Thanks Dave,
Yeah, I did mean degrees F. I'll probably lean on the side that 'hotter 
is better' for the preheat. I can make use of the $29 infrared pyrometer 
I picked up at HF :-)

I hadn't thought beyond forging, so your comment about the amount of oil 
is well noted. I'll have to set that up. I was amazed the first time I 
quenched a modestly sized knife that it brought a gallon of peanut oil 
up to a temp hot enough where it was uncomfortable to touch the side of 
the 1gal paint can that I had stored it in. (I only have about 3rd hand 
experience about plastic buckets for an oil quench.) I'm not sure just 
what I'll use for a container for 5 gal of oil just yet. I may just let 
it air cool and not quench at all.

**paul

On 9/17/2010 2:23 PM, David E. Smucker wrote:
> Paul you are headed down the right track with your plan.
>
> I would use a little higher preheat -- say 400 F, assuming your 300 wasn't
> C.
>
> Welding the short handle on that you hold in the tongs has advantages over
> the small longer handle -- I have done it both ways.  As you kind of note
> the weld is a stress point and can fail -- not a big deal you just weld it
> on again but not having to do that is nice.  The short stub handle allows
> for some movement with-in the tongs so much less stress is put on the weld.
>
> As noted I have done it both ways when making tools and doing a lot of hard
> hitting under the power hammer.  Sometimes with a long handle I have had the
> weld fail.  (I use some lengths of 5/8 rebar for long handles -- about the
> only thing it is good for.)  You can get there with a striker, it was done
> that way for years.  The short stub handle also give less shock to the smith
> holding the hammer head because of the freedom of some slight movement in
> the tongs.  A tong clamp is a good idea.
>
> I leave some extra material and weld to what will be come the face of the
> finished hammer, planning to cut off about 1/2 to 3/4 inch when the hammer
> is almost done.  (I cut off with a chop saw.)  That way I don't need special
> eye tongs except if I want to do some final shaping after cutting off  the
> welded handle.  For heat treating I usually just use some pickup tongs
> shaped to hold into the eye.
>
> You most likely can use oil for quenching this spring steel.  It is a big
> mass so you need at least 4 to 5 gallons in a metal container.  (Don't use a
> plastic bucket.  They melt.)  I have a 15 gallon beer keg that I use with
> about 13 to 14 gallons of oil.
>
> Dave Smucker
> Brasstown, NC
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Paul N"<crosspein at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 12:42 PM
> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"<theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding preheat
>
>> That's fine once I get that hole punched, but it will be probably 4 or
>> more heats squaring it up, etc before I even begin punching the hole.
>> Then I have to hold it for those heats until the punching is complete.
>>
>> I already gave it a shot at holding in in my largest tongs, and it's too
>> unwieldy (I can't get a good enough grip on it). I figured a 10 minute
>> weld job is probably the quickest way to get me where I want to be. I
>> really don't want to make a pair of big tongs because they'll be, well,
>> big; I don't expect to re-use them anytime soon. Plus the tong exercise
>> will be more time consuming than welding on a temporary piece for my
>> initial forging.
>>
>> thanks,
>> **paul
>>
>> On 9/17/2010 11:30 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> I'm no expert on hammer making, but in my limited experience, the
>>> first step was to punch the hole for the wooden handle.  Once the hole
>>> is there you have a couple options how to hold the piece for further
>>> forging.
>>>
>>> One option is to use a hammer-handle-hole drift AS the handle.
>>> Another is to modify a set of tongs so one jaw goes through the hole
>>> and the other grasps the side.  If these tongs are a modified box-jaw
>>> type, you can get a very firm grip while working parallel to the long
>>> axis of the hammer head.
>>>
>>> In short, I see no need to weld at all.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Paul N<crosspein at sbcglobal.net>   wrote:
>>>> I'm about to make my first largish hammer, and I intend to arc-weld a
>>>> "handle" stub onto it. Since I only have hobby-duty welding equipment,
>>>> I thought I'd get another opinion or two before I proceed.
>>>>
>>>> The hammer head will be forged in a coal forge.
>>>>
>>>> Here's what I've got:
>>>> Material:
>>>>    2.5" dia piece of railroad locomotive spring, about 5" long (around
>>>> 7#)
>>>>    1" dia A-36 for my "handle" (about 6" long so I can grab it with
>>>> reasonably sized pair of tongs)
>>>>
>>>> Choice of welders:
>>>>    Lincoln 225 AC/DC ("tombstone")
>>>>    Lincoln SP-170T wirefeed (.035 FCAW)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here's the procedure I'm considering:
>>>> I've beveled the end of the 1" piece leaving about 1/4" flat at the
>>>> bottom.
>>>>
>>>> I was going to use the 225 AC/DC and 6011 rod DCEP to get the best
>>>> penetration
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to preheat both pieces. From what I've read, I should preheat
>>>> the spring to about 300 degrees.
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>> Is this likely to produce a weld that's adequate to hold up to the
>>>> hammering? (Manual, striker with a sledge)
>>>>
>>>> Is the preheat temp critical? More specifically, is hotter better?
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>> **Paul
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>>>
>>>
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