[TheForge] Fw: Fw: Welding preheat

Fri Sep 17 19:24:02 EDT 2010

Paul,  On heat treating, letting it air cool will give you a tough hammer --  
but it may not be as hard as you want.  Of course you can just do the air 
cool and then see what you get and if it isn't hard enough then heat treat. 
If you have heat treated some knifes then you already know what you are 
doing and where you are trying to get to.

On a steel like 4140 or 4340 you get the greatest toughness by heat treating 
and tempering back at around 750 F if I remember right (without checking the 
handbooks).  My quess is that your steel is 5160 or something similar so we 
would need to check the handbooks to see what you would get with just an air 
cool vs. doing a heat treat.  One thing nice about the simple air cool, is 
that it cost you nothing to try and see the results.  If you don't like them 
then heat treat.

I have a favorite little hammer that I think was made from 1045 or 1060 but 
it is too soft.  Still I have a nice handle it it and rather than reheat 
treat I just keep dressing the face.  I am lazy.

Dave Smucker

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul N" <crosspein at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 6:03 PM
To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Fw:  Welding preheat

> Thanks Dave,
> Yeah, I did mean degrees F. I'll probably lean on the side that 'hotter
> is better' for the preheat. I can make use of the $29 infrared pyrometer
> I picked up at HF :-)
>
> I hadn't thought beyond forging, so your comment about the amount of oil
> is well noted. I'll have to set that up. I was amazed the first time I
> quenched a modestly sized knife that it brought a gallon of peanut oil
> up to a temp hot enough where it was uncomfortable to touch the side of
> the 1gal paint can that I had stored it in. (I only have about 3rd hand
> experience about plastic buckets for an oil quench.) I'm not sure just
> what I'll use for a container for 5 gal of oil just yet. I may just let
> it air cool and not quench at all.
>
> **paul
>
> On 9/17/2010 2:23 PM, David E. Smucker wrote:
>> Paul you are headed down the right track with your plan.
>>
>> I would use a little higher preheat -- say 400 F, assuming your 300 
>> wasn't
>> C.
>>
>> Welding the short handle on that you hold in the tongs has advantages 
>> over
>> the small longer handle -- I have done it both ways.  As you kind of note
>> the weld is a stress point and can fail -- not a big deal you just weld 
>> it
>> on again but not having to do that is nice.  The short stub handle allows
>> for some movement with-in the tongs so much less stress is put on the 
>> weld.
>>
>> As noted I have done it both ways when making tools and doing a lot of 
>> hard
>> hitting under the power hammer.  Sometimes with a long handle I have had 
>> the
>> weld fail.  (I use some lengths of 5/8 rebar for long handles -- about 
>> the
>> only thing it is good for.)  You can get there with a striker, it was 
>> done
>> that way for years.  The short stub handle also give less shock to the 
>> smith
>> holding the hammer head because of the freedom of some slight movement in
>> the tongs.  A tong clamp is a good idea.
>>
>> I leave some extra material and weld to what will be come the face of the
>> finished hammer, planning to cut off about 1/2 to 3/4 inch when the 
>> hammer
>> is almost done.  (I cut off with a chop saw.)  That way I don't need 
>> special
>> eye tongs except if I want to do some final shaping after cutting off 
>> the
>> welded handle.  For heat treating I usually just use some pickup tongs
>> shaped to hold into the eye.
>>
>> You most likely can use oil for quenching this spring steel.  It is a big
>> mass so you need at least 4 to 5 gallons in a metal container.  (Don't 
>> use a
>> plastic bucket.  They melt.)  I have a 15 gallon beer keg that I use with
>> about 13 to 14 gallons of oil.
>>
>> Dave Smucker
>> Brasstown, NC
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Paul N"<crosspein at sbcglobal.net>
>> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 12:42 PM
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"<theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding preheat
>>
>>> That's fine once I get that hole punched, but it will be probably 4 or
>>> more heats squaring it up, etc before I even begin punching the hole.
>>> Then I have to hold it for those heats until the punching is complete.
>>>
>>> I already gave it a shot at holding in in my largest tongs, and it's too
>>> unwieldy (I can't get a good enough grip on it). I figured a 10 minute
>>> weld job is probably the quickest way to get me where I want to be. I
>>> really don't want to make a pair of big tongs because they'll be, well,
>>> big; I don't expect to re-use them anytime soon. Plus the tong exercise
>>> will be more time consuming than welding on a temporary piece for my
>>> initial forging.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> **paul
>>>
>>> On 9/17/2010 11:30 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I'm no expert on hammer making, but in my limited experience, the
>>>> first step was to punch the hole for the wooden handle.  Once the hole
>>>> is there you have a couple options how to hold the piece for further
>>>> forging.
>>>>
>>>> One option is to use a hammer-handle-hole drift AS the handle.
>>>> Another is to modify a set of tongs so one jaw goes through the hole
>>>> and the other grasps the side.  If these tongs are a modified box-jaw
>>>> type, you can get a very firm grip while working parallel to the long
>>>> axis of the hammer head.
>>>>
>>>> In short, I see no need to weld at all.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Paul N<crosspein at sbcglobal.net> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm about to make my first largish hammer, and I intend to arc-weld a
>>>>> "handle" stub onto it. Since I only have hobby-duty welding equipment,
>>>>> I thought I'd get another opinion or two before I proceed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hammer head will be forged in a coal forge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's what I've got:
>>>>> Material:
>>>>>    2.5" dia piece of railroad locomotive spring, about 5" long (around
>>>>> 7#)
>>>>>    1" dia A-36 for my "handle" (about 6" long so I can grab it with
>>>>> reasonably sized pair of tongs)
>>>>>
>>>>> Choice of welders:
>>>>>    Lincoln 225 AC/DC ("tombstone")
>>>>>    Lincoln SP-170T wirefeed (.035 FCAW)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the procedure I'm considering:
>>>>> I've beveled the end of the 1" piece leaving about 1/4" flat at the
>>>>> bottom.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was going to use the 225 AC/DC and 6011 rod DCEP to get the best
>>>>> penetration
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to preheat both pieces. From what I've read, I should 
>>>>> preheat
>>>>> the spring to about 300 degrees.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions:
>>>>> Is this likely to produce a weld that's adequate to hold up to the
>>>>> hammering? (Manual, striker with a sledge)
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the preheat temp critical? More specifically, is hotter better?
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> **Paul
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