[TheForge] Re:liability

Jim Beard regionalchaos at gmail.com
Wed Feb 21 13:19:07 EST 2007 

The other thing burning man does, that people seemed to think ABANA
could not do is store physical resources.  I'm not sure why this is
such an impossibility for ABANA.  Burning Man purchased a piece of
ranch property, and stored there own assets there.

It seems like ABANA  could easily enough, purchase a few acres in the
middle of the US, near highway access.  Then buy some of the old Train
car storage units, or flat bet storage units, and keep physical stuff
in these units.  There would obviously be some upfront costs, but
within a short amount of time ROI would occur.  Then for events (maybe
a big conference, maybe smaller regional conferences) the cost of
using those goods would only be transportation costs.

Is there something inherently bad or wrong about my suggestion?

Jim
Eugene, OR

On 2/20/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
> I personally would love for ABANA to be a mini Burning Man Festival,
> but alas.....
> I don't think that most of the membership would understand. or attend.
> Like they are saying in the responses A waver does not make it. If
> ABANA got sued in a big way that our insurance didn't cover, I
> couldn't afford to spend time in court, win or loose and most of the
> board members couldn't either. I prefer rock solid insurance.
> dave m
>
> On 2/20/07, Jim Beard <regionalchaos at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The only organization that I 'belong' to that holds an annual
> > 'conference' is Burning Man.  (http://burningman.com)  They facilitate
> > an arts festival in the form of a temporary city in the Black Rock
> > desert of Nevada once a year.  Close to 40,000 people attend for about
> > a week on average.  My understanding of the way that they handle the
> > insurance issue (and believe me, crazy, dangerous, relatively
> > un-insurable stuff goes on) is by a disclaimer on the ticket.  It
> > reads, "You voluntarily assume the risk of serious injury or death by
> > attending this event."
> >
> > Can't a similar approach be taken by ABANA?  What I mean is, can't a
> > ticket to an ABANA event state that by attending the event, the ticket
> > holder is waiving their right to be compensated for damages related to
> > injury or death?
> >
> > BTW, the Burning Man community holds TONS of regional events that are
> > all loosely affiliated with the main organization.  The main org is an
> > LLC that manages the event, and there is a non profit associated
> > (Black Rock Arts Foundation) that handles grant money for artists,
> > etc.  The main org provides some resources to regional events.  These
> > take the form of some web exposure and hosting, mailing list hosting
> > and assistance from BRAF in the form of advice, grants and traveling
> > art.
> >
> > Burning Man might not be exactly the type of organization that you
> > want to model ABANA after, but it is a large central body that manages
> > a yearly arts festival (with close to 40k in attendance) and works to
> > cultivate loosely affiliated regional organizations.  Oh, and almost
> > everything happens because of volunteers.  There are very very few
> > paid positions in the LLC.  Thousands of people volunteer to make the
> > event happen.
> >
> > just .02$ and some info,
> >
> > Jim
> > Eugene, OR
> >
> >
> > On 2/19/07, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
> > > Here's the deal with that, i think...
> > > The board members are potentially liable for legal complications
> > > resulting from a conference.
> > > They would have to indigent or awfully foolish to proceed without
> > > insurance.
> > > The insurance companies first rule is CYA....So they sit on the
> > > board members and quiver at any perceived liability.
> > > Blowing an anvil!!!!Oh My Gawd!!! Quack!! Quack!!
> > > To reduce a conference to the size where nobody's responsible,
> > > makes for a very small event.....or Phlip's decentralized,
> > > democratic model....which has some real virtues.
> > > Mark and Sylvia Mondloch wrote:
> > > > If ABANA can not get over it's liability fears it will never be able to
> > > > move on.
> > > > mondloch at silvercreekpottery.com
> > > > www.silvercreekpottery.com
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mudge" <dave at magichammer.net>
> > > > To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:47 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] ABANA conference details: tents, organization mode
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Suggesting those tiny little tents comes from a good place in your
> > > >> heart and I thank you for your creative thinking. There are several
> > > >> other aspects to the tenting (and tenting is a small issue). ABANA
> > > >> does not and can not afford to inventory (own) lots of 'stuff'. We
> > > >> already have two containers jam-packed full of conference stuff like
> > > >> forges, wires, display cases.etc. We have no place to store things
> > > >> like tents for two years between conferences.
> > > >> The tents that we use are more like 40' x 100'. We rent them because
> > > >> the rental company will 'professionally' set them up, take them down,
> > > >> repair the stake holes in the asphalt, and absorb the cost of any
> > > >> damage or repair and releases ABANA from one more liability. I don't
> > > >> think that the insurance company would let us set up our own even if
> > > >> we had enough volunteer crew to do it.
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2/19/07, Bruce Freeman <freemab222 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >>> And THAT tent/tarp is expensive in my book!  NJBA has
> > > >>> one maybe a quarter that size that cost maybe a few
> > > >>> hundred dollars, rather than thousands.  Takes a few
> > > >>> men to set it up...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Maybe the whole approach to giving large conferences
> > > >>> is at fault.  Imagine a system in which the several
> > > >>> affiliates each sponsored a demonstrator at some
> > > >>> central regional conference.  Each affiliate would be
> > > >>> responsible for tools, tent, bleachers, etc.  ABANA,
> > > >>> or someone respresenting ABANA, could coordinate to
> > > >>> provide resources common to all.
> > > >>
> > > >> .......This idea has merit, keep working on it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Creative solutions to problems could be found because
> > > >>> there'd be more brains working on the problem
> > > >>> ("distributed control" rather than "centralized
> > > >>> control").
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For example, why a single, centralized food service?
> > > >>> Because we're running these on campuses, that's why.
> > > >>> Get them off campus.  Allow local food businesses,
> > > >>> caterers, hot dog trucks, lunch wagons, etc., to come
> > > >>> in and set up, and take their lumps if their food is
> > > >>> mediocre and nobody buys it.
> > > >>
> > > >> ..........There are several reasons for the centralized services in
> > > >> the big conference.
> > > >> People enjoy the camaraderie of eating together in a nice air
> > > >> conditioned cafe.
> > > >>> From the producer's point of view, you want to keep your people
> > > >> together and on-site. ABANA makes a little money on the food and rooms
> > > >> as well.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The major fault of ABANA and most other volunteer
> > > >>> organizations is that they are run like businesses.
> > > >>> Who the hell wants a second - unpaid! - job?  People
> > > >>> want to be "paid" for their work, but the pay doesn't
> > > >>> have to be money.  I like getting paid by having an
> > > >>> opportunity to contribute, having my contributions
> > > >>> appreciated by others, participatiing in camaraderie,
> > > >>> etc.  But if the organization is such that volunteers
> > > >>> don't get to do what they want to do, then they burn
> > > >>> out  quickly.
> > > >>
> > > >> ..........I am glad that you recognise that we are a VOLUNTEER run
> > > >> organization and that the board does not receive any monitory
> > > >> compensation for their work. As far as running the organization like a
> > > >> business, we have a $150k trust that pays for affiliate grants and the
> > > >> conferences are running over $350k....... publications are around
> > > >> $150k , and a $50k executive secretary, we had better try to run it
> > > >> like a business and not waste the member's money.
> > > >> dave m
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Bruce
> > > >>> NJ
> > > >>> --- Saint Phlip <phlip at 99main.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > On 2/19/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
> > > >>> > > ......Just the tents at Richmond cost us $30k.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&catalogId2=10001&ftCatalogId=10001&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&searchMethod=wcSearch&searchType=ANY&searchBeginIndex=0&searchDefaultPerPage=10&ftSearchBeginIndex=0&ftSearchDefaultPerPage=10&mfPartNumber=104513
> > > >>>
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Or goto www.farmtek.com
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Item number 104513
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > --
> > > >>> > Saint Phlip
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Heat it up
> > > >>> > Hit it hard
> > > >>> > Repent as necessary.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Priorities:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > It's the smith who makes the tools, not the tools
> > > >>> > which make the smith.
> > > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > > >>>
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> > > >
> > > >
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