[TheForge] Re:liability

Dave Mudge dave at magichammer.net
Tue Feb 20 23:16:09 EST 2007 

I personally would love for ABANA to be a mini Burning Man Festival,
but alas.....
I don't think that most of the membership would understand. or attend.
Like they are saying in the responses A waver does not make it. If
ABANA got sued in a big way that our insurance didn't cover, I
couldn't afford to spend time in court, win or loose and most of the
board members couldn't either. I prefer rock solid insurance.
dave m

On 2/20/07, Jim Beard <regionalchaos at gmail.com> wrote:
> The only organization that I 'belong' to that holds an annual
> 'conference' is Burning Man.  (http://burningman.com)  They facilitate
> an arts festival in the form of a temporary city in the Black Rock
> desert of Nevada once a year.  Close to 40,000 people attend for about
> a week on average.  My understanding of the way that they handle the
> insurance issue (and believe me, crazy, dangerous, relatively
> un-insurable stuff goes on) is by a disclaimer on the ticket.  It
> reads, "You voluntarily assume the risk of serious injury or death by
> attending this event."
>
> Can't a similar approach be taken by ABANA?  What I mean is, can't a
> ticket to an ABANA event state that by attending the event, the ticket
> holder is waiving their right to be compensated for damages related to
> injury or death?
>
> BTW, the Burning Man community holds TONS of regional events that are
> all loosely affiliated with the main organization.  The main org is an
> LLC that manages the event, and there is a non profit associated
> (Black Rock Arts Foundation) that handles grant money for artists,
> etc.  The main org provides some resources to regional events.  These
> take the form of some web exposure and hosting, mailing list hosting
> and assistance from BRAF in the form of advice, grants and traveling
> art.
>
> Burning Man might not be exactly the type of organization that you
> want to model ABANA after, but it is a large central body that manages
> a yearly arts festival (with close to 40k in attendance) and works to
> cultivate loosely affiliated regional organizations.  Oh, and almost
> everything happens because of volunteers.  There are very very few
> paid positions in the LLC.  Thousands of people volunteer to make the
> event happen.
>
> just .02$ and some info,
>
> Jim
> Eugene, OR
>
>
> On 2/19/07, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
> > Here's the deal with that, i think...
> > The board members are potentially liable for legal complications
> > resulting from a conference.
> > They would have to indigent or awfully foolish to proceed without
> > insurance.
> > The insurance companies first rule is CYA....So they sit on the
> > board members and quiver at any perceived liability.
> > Blowing an anvil!!!!Oh My Gawd!!! Quack!! Quack!!
> > To reduce a conference to the size where nobody's responsible,
> > makes for a very small event.....or Phlip's decentralized,
> > democratic model....which has some real virtues.
> > Mark and Sylvia Mondloch wrote:
> > > If ABANA can not get over it's liability fears it will never be able to
> > > move on.
> > > mondloch at silvercreekpottery.com
> > > www.silvercreekpottery.com
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mudge" <dave at magichammer.net>
> > > To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> > > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] ABANA conference details: tents, organization mode
> > >
> > >
> > >> Suggesting those tiny little tents comes from a good place in your
> > >> heart and I thank you for your creative thinking. There are several
> > >> other aspects to the tenting (and tenting is a small issue). ABANA
> > >> does not and can not afford to inventory (own) lots of 'stuff'. We
> > >> already have two containers jam-packed full of conference stuff like
> > >> forges, wires, display cases.etc. We have no place to store things
> > >> like tents for two years between conferences.
> > >> The tents that we use are more like 40' x 100'. We rent them because
> > >> the rental company will 'professionally' set them up, take them down,
> > >> repair the stake holes in the asphalt, and absorb the cost of any
> > >> damage or repair and releases ABANA from one more liability. I don't
> > >> think that the insurance company would let us set up our own even if
> > >> we had enough volunteer crew to do it.
> > >>
> > >> On 2/19/07, Bruce Freeman <freemab222 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>> And THAT tent/tarp is expensive in my book!  NJBA has
> > >>> one maybe a quarter that size that cost maybe a few
> > >>> hundred dollars, rather than thousands.  Takes a few
> > >>> men to set it up...
> > >>>
> > >>> Maybe the whole approach to giving large conferences
> > >>> is at fault.  Imagine a system in which the several
> > >>> affiliates each sponsored a demonstrator at some
> > >>> central regional conference.  Each affiliate would be
> > >>> responsible for tools, tent, bleachers, etc.  ABANA,
> > >>> or someone respresenting ABANA, could coordinate to
> > >>> provide resources common to all.
> > >>
> > >> .......This idea has merit, keep working on it.
> > >>>
> > >>> Creative solutions to problems could be found because
> > >>> there'd be more brains working on the problem
> > >>> ("distributed control" rather than "centralized
> > >>> control").
> > >>>
> > >>> For example, why a single, centralized food service?
> > >>> Because we're running these on campuses, that's why.
> > >>> Get them off campus.  Allow local food businesses,
> > >>> caterers, hot dog trucks, lunch wagons, etc., to come
> > >>> in and set up, and take their lumps if their food is
> > >>> mediocre and nobody buys it.
> > >>
> > >> ..........There are several reasons for the centralized services in
> > >> the big conference.
> > >> People enjoy the camaraderie of eating together in a nice air
> > >> conditioned cafe.
> > >>> From the producer's point of view, you want to keep your people
> > >> together and on-site. ABANA makes a little money on the food and rooms
> > >> as well.
> > >>>
> > >>> The major fault of ABANA and most other volunteer
> > >>> organizations is that they are run like businesses.
> > >>> Who the hell wants a second - unpaid! - job?  People
> > >>> want to be "paid" for their work, but the pay doesn't
> > >>> have to be money.  I like getting paid by having an
> > >>> opportunity to contribute, having my contributions
> > >>> appreciated by others, participatiing in camaraderie,
> > >>> etc.  But if the organization is such that volunteers
> > >>> don't get to do what they want to do, then they burn
> > >>> out  quickly.
> > >>
> > >> ..........I am glad that you recognise that we are a VOLUNTEER run
> > >> organization and that the board does not receive any monitory
> > >> compensation for their work. As far as running the organization like a
> > >> business, we have a $150k trust that pays for affiliate grants and the
> > >> conferences are running over $350k....... publications are around
> > >> $150k , and a $50k executive secretary, we had better try to run it
> > >> like a business and not waste the member's money.
> > >> dave m
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce
> > >>> NJ
> > >>> --- Saint Phlip <phlip at 99main.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > On 2/19/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
> > >>> > > ......Just the tents at Richmond cost us $30k.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&catalogId2=10001&ftCatalogId=10001&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&searchMethod=wcSearch&searchType=ANY&searchBeginIndex=0&searchDefaultPerPage=10&ftSearchBeginIndex=0&ftSearchDefaultPerPage=10&mfPartNumber=104513
> > >>>
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Or goto www.farmtek.com
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Item number 104513
> > >>> >
> > >>> > --
> > >>> > Saint Phlip
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Heat it up
> > >>> > Hit it hard
> > >>> > Repent as necessary.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Priorities:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > It's the smith who makes the tools, not the tools
> > >>> > which make the smith.
> > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >
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