[TheForge] Re:liability

Steve Smith sos at alum.mit.edu
Wed Feb 21 20:53:01 EST 2007 

Jim, I can't imagine this being a good idea. I haven't priced storage 
units, but I bet you can get a good amount of space for $50 per month. 
You aren't going to buy land for that, let alone storage units.

Security is far better as well...

Steve

Jim Beard wrote:

> The other thing burning man does, that people seemed to think ABANA
> could not do is store physical resources.  I'm not sure why this is
> such an impossibility for ABANA.  Burning Man purchased a piece of
> ranch property, and stored there own assets there.
> 
> It seems like ABANA  could easily enough, purchase a few acres in the
> middle of the US, near highway access.  Then buy some of the old Train
> car storage units, or flat bet storage units, and keep physical stuff
> in these units.  There would obviously be some upfront costs, but
> within a short amount of time ROI would occur.  Then for events (maybe
> a big conference, maybe smaller regional conferences) the cost of
> using those goods would only be transportation costs.
> 
> Is there something inherently bad or wrong about my suggestion?
> 
> Jim
> Eugene, OR
> 
> On 2/20/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
> 
>> I personally would love for ABANA to be a mini Burning Man Festival,
>> but alas.....
>> I don't think that most of the membership would understand. or attend.
>> Like they are saying in the responses A waver does not make it. If
>> ABANA got sued in a big way that our insurance didn't cover, I
>> couldn't afford to spend time in court, win or loose and most of the
>> board members couldn't either. I prefer rock solid insurance.
>> dave m
>>
>> On 2/20/07, Jim Beard <regionalchaos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The only organization that I 'belong' to that holds an annual
>> > 'conference' is Burning Man.  (http://burningman.com)  They facilitate
>> > an arts festival in the form of a temporary city in the Black Rock
>> > desert of Nevada once a year.  Close to 40,000 people attend for about
>> > a week on average.  My understanding of the way that they handle the
>> > insurance issue (and believe me, crazy, dangerous, relatively
>> > un-insurable stuff goes on) is by a disclaimer on the ticket.  It
>> > reads, "You voluntarily assume the risk of serious injury or death by
>> > attending this event."
>> >
>> > Can't a similar approach be taken by ABANA?  What I mean is, can't a
>> > ticket to an ABANA event state that by attending the event, the ticket
>> > holder is waiving their right to be compensated for damages related to
>> > injury or death?
>> >
>> > BTW, the Burning Man community holds TONS of regional events that are
>> > all loosely affiliated with the main organization.  The main org is an
>> > LLC that manages the event, and there is a non profit associated
>> > (Black Rock Arts Foundation) that handles grant money for artists,
>> > etc.  The main org provides some resources to regional events.  These
>> > take the form of some web exposure and hosting, mailing list hosting
>> > and assistance from BRAF in the form of advice, grants and traveling
>> > art.
>> >
>> > Burning Man might not be exactly the type of organization that you
>> > want to model ABANA after, but it is a large central body that manages
>> > a yearly arts festival (with close to 40k in attendance) and works to
>> > cultivate loosely affiliated regional organizations.  Oh, and almost
>> > everything happens because of volunteers.  There are very very few
>> > paid positions in the LLC.  Thousands of people volunteer to make the
>> > event happen.
>> >
>> > just .02$ and some info,
>> >
>> > Jim
>> > Eugene, OR
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2/19/07, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>> > > Here's the deal with that, i think...
>> > > The board members are potentially liable for legal complications
>> > > resulting from a conference.
>> > > They would have to indigent or awfully foolish to proceed without
>> > > insurance.
>> > > The insurance companies first rule is CYA....So they sit on the
>> > > board members and quiver at any perceived liability.
>> > > Blowing an anvil!!!!Oh My Gawd!!! Quack!! Quack!!
>> > > To reduce a conference to the size where nobody's responsible,
>> > > makes for a very small event.....or Phlip's decentralized,
>> > > democratic model....which has some real virtues.
>> > > Mark and Sylvia Mondloch wrote:
>> > > > If ABANA can not get over it's liability fears it will never be 
>> able to
>> > > > move on.
>> > > > mondloch at silvercreekpottery.com
>> > > > www.silvercreekpottery.com
>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mudge" 
>> <dave at magichammer.net>
>> > > > To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> > > > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:47 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] ABANA conference details: tents, 
>> organization mode
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> Suggesting those tiny little tents comes from a good place in your
>> > > >> heart and I thank you for your creative thinking. There are 
>> several
>> > > >> other aspects to the tenting (and tenting is a small issue). ABANA
>> > > >> does not and can not afford to inventory (own) lots of 'stuff'. We
>> > > >> already have two containers jam-packed full of conference stuff 
>> like
>> > > >> forges, wires, display cases.etc. We have no place to store things
>> > > >> like tents for two years between conferences.
>> > > >> The tents that we use are more like 40' x 100'. We rent them 
>> because
>> > > >> the rental company will 'professionally' set them up, take them 
>> down,
>> > > >> repair the stake holes in the asphalt, and absorb the cost of any
>> > > >> damage or repair and releases ABANA from one more liability. I 
>> don't
>> > > >> think that the insurance company would let us set up our own 
>> even if
>> > > >> we had enough volunteer crew to do it.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On 2/19/07, Bruce Freeman <freemab222 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > >>> And THAT tent/tarp is expensive in my book!  NJBA has
>> > > >>> one maybe a quarter that size that cost maybe a few
>> > > >>> hundred dollars, rather than thousands.  Takes a few
>> > > >>> men to set it up...
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Maybe the whole approach to giving large conferences
>> > > >>> is at fault.  Imagine a system in which the several
>> > > >>> affiliates each sponsored a demonstrator at some
>> > > >>> central regional conference.  Each affiliate would be
>> > > >>> responsible for tools, tent, bleachers, etc.  ABANA,
>> > > >>> or someone respresenting ABANA, could coordinate to
>> > > >>> provide resources common to all.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> .......This idea has merit, keep working on it.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Creative solutions to problems could be found because
>> > > >>> there'd be more brains working on the problem
>> > > >>> ("distributed control" rather than "centralized
>> > > >>> control").
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> For example, why a single, centralized food service?
>> > > >>> Because we're running these on campuses, that's why.
>> > > >>> Get them off campus.  Allow local food businesses,
>> > > >>> caterers, hot dog trucks, lunch wagons, etc., to come
>> > > >>> in and set up, and take their lumps if their food is
>> > > >>> mediocre and nobody buys it.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ..........There are several reasons for the centralized 
>> services in
>> > > >> the big conference.
>> > > >> People enjoy the camaraderie of eating together in a nice air
>> > > >> conditioned cafe.
>> > > >>> From the producer's point of view, you want to keep your people
>> > > >> together and on-site. ABANA makes a little money on the food 
>> and rooms
>> > > >> as well.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> The major fault of ABANA and most other volunteer
>> > > >>> organizations is that they are run like businesses.
>> > > >>> Who the hell wants a second - unpaid! - job?  People
>> > > >>> want to be "paid" for their work, but the pay doesn't
>> > > >>> have to be money.  I like getting paid by having an
>> > > >>> opportunity to contribute, having my contributions
>> > > >>> appreciated by others, participatiing in camaraderie,
>> > > >>> etc.  But if the organization is such that volunteers
>> > > >>> don't get to do what they want to do, then they burn
>> > > >>> out  quickly.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ..........I am glad that you recognise that we are a VOLUNTEER run
>> > > >> organization and that the board does not receive any monitory
>> > > >> compensation for their work. As far as running the organization 
>> like a
>> > > >> business, we have a $150k trust that pays for affiliate grants 
>> and the
>> > > >> conferences are running over $350k....... publications are around
>> > > >> $150k , and a $50k executive secretary, we had better try to 
>> run it
>> > > >> like a business and not waste the member's money.
>> > > >> dave m
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Bruce
>> > > >>> NJ
>> > > >>> --- Saint Phlip <phlip at 99main.com> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > On 2/19/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
>> > > >>> > > ......Just the tents at Richmond cost us $30k.
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> 
>> http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&catalogId2=10001&ftCatalogId=10001&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&searchMethod=wcSearch&searchType=ANY&searchBeginIndex=0&searchDefaultPerPage=10&ftSearchBeginIndex=0&ftSearchDefaultPerPage=10&mfPartNumber=104513 
>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > Or goto www.farmtek.com
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > Item number 104513
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > --
>> > > >>> > Saint Phlip
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > Heat it up
>> > > >>> > Hit it hard
>> > > >>> > Repent as necessary.
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > Priorities:
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > It's the smith who makes the tools, not the tools
>> > > >>> > which make the smith.
>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________
>> > > >>>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> > > >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> > > >> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> > > >> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> > > >> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> > > >> password:  anvil
>> > > >> ___________
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
>> > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
>> > > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> > > > password:  anvil
>> > > > ___________
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> > > theforge mail list group photo site is
>> > > http://www.photoaccess.com
>> > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> > > password:  anvil
>> > > ___________
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> > theforge mail list group photo site is
>> > http://www.photoaccess.com
>> > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> > password:  anvil
>> > ___________
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> password:  anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoaccess.com
> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> password:  anvil
> ___________
> 
> 
>

More information about the TheForge mailing list