[TheForge] toys how many?

[Jerry Frost]

Good points all Ralph.

It's why I was planning on designing the press to take a set of rolls from 
the start. Precision is essential or they just won't work. A few thousandths 
deflection and you're rolling uncontrolled spirals and helices.

The ram stroke doesn't make much difference if you have a mechanically 
adjustable press like the commercial jobbies.

And no I wasn't only thinking of straight (single) rolls, I was thinking of 
ring/hoop/? rolls too. It'll just depend on which top set I use.

Having enough clearance for large dia rings is a good reason for stand (or 
lay) alone rolls and another reason to have good stout gazintas. I just hope 
there isn't a rule against rolling large rings laying on their sides on the 
floor. <grin> I can drop 2" solid sq. in my gazintas and place: rams, 
rollers, etc. pretty much at will in the shop.

I haven't had to do it yet (of course) but picture my "floor roller" as 
having a stout section of "I" beam as a bridge between two/three gazintas 
with the press roller extending from another. A large ring/hoop roller can 
be set up in widely separated gazintas for extremely big radii bends or for 
leverage on hard pushes.

A point while thinking about large dia/scale lay down floor rollers is heat. 
While this may not be much of an issue rolling rings it is an issue when 
rolling textures, shapes, etc. I don't plan on fishing a long piece of stock 
out of the forge and threading it in the roller. Heck I don't plan on all 
the hassle of trying to get an even heat in a long piece of stock.

I don't know if it'll work but I intend to make a clamp on multi-burner, 
long stock, "forge" for this sort of thing. It'll be nothing more than a 
couple/few feet of light wall pipe, maybe stove pipe, hinged to open like a 
clamshell forge and insulated with a couple inches of Kaowool. It'll have a 
number of propane burners along it's length so it'll heat long stock as it 
passes through on it's way to the roller.

This won't be an issue forging billets with rollers as this'll most probably 
be done on billets that'll fit in the forge in the first place. Doing this 
kind of roll forging will require reversable drive roll(s) and real time 
control of the pressure. Adjustable stops will be necessary at any rate so a 
person doesn't go too far in the enthusiasm of the moment. <grin>

You're point about multitasking a single device is more than valid. Anything 
designed to do everything does nothing well. It takes real balance to pull 
it off economically. Sometimes it's just a lot more practical to have 
several machines than change out tooling repeatedly over a day or project.

I don't know what my "market" is going to be but I know I don't want to have 
to buy 1/2 rd. or top rail from here; $212 a stick would've been a good deal 
before steel and fuel got expensive. This last month I could've had a spiral 
staircase job had I been equipped for it. I'll still get a bit of railing 
out of it but they went with a conventional staircase. (My suggestion even 
if they had to tear the ceiling and roof out to do it.)

Basically I envision myself needing a set of texturing/shaping rolls more 
than ring rolls and not working stock much larger than say 4" x 3/8". 
Multiple passes for shaping stock this large means less need for "hell for 
stout." Texturing stock this large will take "hell for stout" though. Unless 
I can get it hot enough of course. <grin>

A lot of this is just pure discussion as there are so many variables between 
shops, operators, markets, and so on, no single 
solution/device/tool/technique/ . . . (color?) will fit everybody. It's one 
of the beauties af brainstorming these things, what sounds like a bad idea 
to one of us may be perfect for somebody else.

Heck, this isn't a dissertation at all, just a little brainstorming. Thanks 
for jumping in, it's what makes brainstorming work.

Frosty

------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks

Meadow Lakes, AK.


From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>


> Frosty, I like this disertation on a roll attachment for the exhisting
> hydraulic press. I'd thought about doing something similar to this - but
> after using my hydraulic press for a few years I've seen just how much the
> placement of the hot material on the dies means to the resistance building
> and sending the top die off alignment a tad and material moving in that
> direction.  Doing rolls would require very accurate guides on a heavy 
> press
> (mine aren't that accurate any more - I have about an 1/8" of slop).
> Also on a 10" stoke - the unit takes up the entire available die space
> rather quickly with roll and shaft sizes thrown in - it may not leave much
> for stock size to roll on edge.  I'm saying that cuz I went with a 10"
> stroke cylinder as that's what I found - and now wished I'd gone for 
> 16-20.
>
> I'd built my press and aquired a selector valve that I was going to run
> other "accessories" off the same power unit - but after seeing how much 
> and
> how often I go to the press and look to bend straighten or shape during 
> the
> day .......I really didn't want to make up a system that took set up and
> alignment to hinder press use in general.
>
> I've headed in another tangent by collecting a seperate frame with two
> large pistons to set up against a 5 foot die bed to run either one or two
> pistons against it for folding larger items than will fit in the current
> hydraulic press.  I'm sketching on designs to make each piston float to do
> two things at once so you could fold and seam if you wanted to as well.
> Having a second power pack has led me to think this is a totally seperate
> press station that could have a seperate set of driven rolls off the side.
> I find when ever I do long bending in the current C frame press.....the
> stock comes up and hits the cylinder/press frame. I know the tangent we 
> are
> talking about is "rolling" material in a straight line - but a three roll
> system is also a desirable option for making circles - which always hit 
> the
> frame unless projected outside of it.
> I'd like to make a set of rolls that could be used for rolling into 
> circles
> and also for rolling stock to shape.  At the current $212 per 20 foot 
> length
> of half round to purchase from someone like Bay Shore metals and adding
> shipping on top of that.......well lets say it only takes about 5-10 
> pieces
> of stock made now to pay for the dam press/roller/!!
>
> All food for thought as we try to save floor space, compete in the current
> market, and delve into projects that are multifunctioning off em power
> units.
>
> So my take is stay seperate on the attachment of rolling from your full
> time "squishing" press as you'll find you go to it at least 10 times a day
> and taking time to do set ups will become annoying. If the unit could drop
> on and off the bottom die it would be nice, but heavy shafts, heavy rolls
> and hydraulic motors (even if lines are quick coupled) are going to 
> require
> the ceiling crane to place said accessory on the press.
>
> ......I'm also thinking as I go here.....and maybe the selector valve from
> the press is a good idea and keep the straight in line rolling of shapes
> seperate from the three rolls system for ring and round rolling of
> shapes.......Oh sure, now you've gone and done it - I won't be able to
> concentrate on my project today cuz I'm gonna be pondering this tangent
> now!!!  :-)
> Let's see, a set of quick couplers, a two spool valve, piston for pressure
> two drive motors, flow divider, bearings, shafts, rolls, plug into the 
> floor
> mounting system......etc.
>
> Do you think one motor would work(running a lower roll)? that would
> elimnate the flow divider and second motor. Anyone driving an in line
> material roll with just one active roll? Is it adequate? What do you do,
> just let of the pressure on the top roll and take another pass when one
> drive roll stalls?
>
> Ralph
>