[TheForge] toys how many?

[Ralph Sproul]

	Frosty, I like this disertation on a roll attachment for the exhisting
hydraulic press. I'd thought about doing something similar to this - but
after using my hydraulic press for a few years I've seen just how much the
placement of the hot material on the dies means to the resistance building
and sending the top die off alignment a tad and material moving in that
direction.  Doing rolls would require very accurate guides on a heavy press
(mine aren't that accurate any more - I have about an 1/8" of slop).
	Also on a 10" stoke - the unit takes up the entire available die space
rather quickly with roll and shaft sizes thrown in - it may not leave much
for stock size to roll on edge.  I'm saying that cuz I went with a 10"
stroke cylinder as that's what I found - and now wished I'd gone for 16-20.

	I'd built my press and aquired a selector valve that I was going to run
other "accessories" off the same power unit - but after seeing how much and
how often I go to the press and look to bend straighten or shape during the
day .......I really didn't want to make up a system that took set up and
alignment to hinder press use in general.

	I've headed in another tangent by collecting a seperate frame with two
large pistons to set up against a 5 foot die bed to run either one or two
pistons against it for folding larger items than will fit in the current
hydraulic press.  I'm sketching on designs to make each piston float to do
two things at once so you could fold and seam if you wanted to as well.
	Having a second power pack has led me to think this is a totally seperate
press station that could have a seperate set of driven rolls off the side.
I find when ever I do long bending in the current C frame press.....the
stock comes up and hits the cylinder/press frame. I know the tangent we are
talking about is "rolling" material in a straight line - but a three roll
system is also a desirable option for making circles - which always hit the
frame unless projected outside of it.
	I'd like to make a set of rolls that could be used for rolling into circles
and also for rolling stock to shape.  At the current $212 per 20 foot length
of half round to purchase from someone like Bay Shore metals and adding
shipping on top of that.......well lets say it only takes about 5-10 pieces
of stock made now to pay for the dam press/roller/!!

	All food for thought as we try to save floor space, compete in the current
market, and delve into projects that are multifunctioning off em power
units.

	So my take is stay seperate on the attachment of rolling from your full
time "squishing" press as you'll find you go to it at least 10 times a day
and taking time to do set ups will become annoying. If the unit could drop
on and off the bottom die it would be nice, but heavy shafts, heavy rolls
and hydraulic motors (even if lines are quick coupled) are going to require
the ceiling crane to place said accessory on the press.

	......I'm also thinking as I go here.....and maybe the selector valve from
the press is a good idea and keep the straight in line rolling of shapes
seperate from the three rolls system for ring and round rolling of
shapes.......Oh sure, now you've gone and done it - I won't be able to
concentrate on my project today cuz I'm gonna be pondering this tangent
now!!!  :-)
	Let's see, a set of quick couplers, a two spool valve, piston for pressure
two drive motors, flow divider, bearings, shafts, rolls, plug into the floor
mounting system......etc.

	Do you think one motor would work(running a lower roll)? that would
elimnate the flow divider and second motor. Anyone driving an in line
material roll with just one active roll? Is it adequate? What do you do,
just let of the pressure on the top roll and take another pass when one
drive roll stalls?

Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:43 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] toys how many?


I don't have a specific design in mind or a URL on tap. So far it's been a
back burner project awaiting a real shop. In fact I'd planned on having
rolls before I decided I'd like a press too.

The concept is pretty simple and there are a number of approaches. Basically
press rolls generally have a static bottom (anvil?) roller and a movable top
(hammer?) roller. Some drive top and bottom, some only drive the bottom.

When I start noodling around with the thing I'll start with just the bottom
roll driven to simplify things. If it isn't enough I'll try scrounging or
designing a mechanism to match speed on both rollers.

If you picture a large rigid smithin magician with rollers instead of dies
you'll have my initial idea. Please bear with me I'm brainstorming from here
on in

Instead of a single flat slide/guide like a magician there'll be two, one on
each side. The lower half will be the guides (female) half. They'll be
doubled, probably 1/2" x 8" x ?" high, seperated on the edges by 1/2" x 1"
rec. bar welded in with a little clearance, I like pasteboard about phone
book cover weight. The clearance will allow the upper slides room to move.

The guides will be drilled for shaft bearings to carry the lower roller. The
buides will have to be welded to a really solid base plate and either tall
enough to clear the roller or the base plate will need to be open to clear
the roller. The lower shaft will be connected to an appropriate reversable
hydraulic motor via suitable gear reduction to yield sufficient torque at a
controllable/comfortable speed.

The bottom half will need a positive way to mount it in the press with
consideration for the long stock passing back and forth through the roller.
Placing the press will be important as you don't want to have to make a hole
in the wall you know. <grin>

The upper (so far) undriven/slave roller gets mounted to a "fork" made of
1/2" x 6" x ?" high that matches (male) the (female) guides on the bottom
half. See the resemblance to a smithin magician? We can call it a "Rollin
Magician" if this idea works eh?

Anyway, the male halves of the slide will have to be slotted to clear the
drive shaft and connected at the top by a robust drive plate. The roller
shaft on top won't have a drive connection (so far) but it probably wouldn't
hurt to leave it long enough in the prototype.

Shafts and bearings will have to be hell for stout of course. Keeping things
aligned will be critical, etc. etc.

Like I say it's not a technically difficult device but it will demand a
professional level of precision.

Frosty
------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks

Meadow Lakes, AK.


From: "Dan Scheid" <Damales at earthlink.net>


> Very interesting and insightful. Would you have any Hydraulic roller plans
> or links to any? This is something I think I should check into more.
> I never thought of using the press as part of the roller I was stuck on a
> stand alone unit.
> Thank you
> Dan
> /

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