[TheForge] Super Quenched Dies?

Wed Apr 20 14:08:39 EDT 2005

I am in the Don't camp for forging dies and here is a little data, take it 
or leave as you see fit.

4340 -- very good material for dies, has a yield strength of 140,000 psi in 
it's annealed state.  Hardness around Rc 35
It is a very tough steel, and does not deform easily.  It not S7 but damn 
good.  (I would heat treat 4340 and draw it back at 500 F for a hardness of 
Rc 52 and a yield strength greater than 230,000 psi.)  I found a supply of 
7/8 dia 4340 and it makes great tooling.

A36, has a minimum yield of 36,000 psi but is often higher, but not likely 
to be better than about 50,000 psi.  You can get some surface hardness with 
Super Quench but you will not get significant depth of hardness or increase 
in toughness.  God made it that way, no matter how fast you quench it in 
large section, as we are not talking about 1/2 inch bar for hammer dies.  (I 
say God made it that way because no matter how fast you cool the surface of 
a large chunk of steel you can only transfer heat so fast through the steel, 
meaning that it take much longer (in seconds) to cool the inside than the 
outside of the die.  That is why alloy steels work so well, they don't have 
to be quench so fast for the same hardness and strength.)  Also keep in mind 
that no matter how hard you get a surface of dies, you will draw them to 
some degree when working hot metal.  Getting the bottom die surface to 300 F 
is common.  Top dies stay cooler, you get more "wear and deformation" in the 
bottom die, and pound in scale on the bottom die too.

Again for low cost tool steel I would use the head of a railroad rail (close 
to a 1080 steel), or a section of leaf spring.  Weld the leaf spring to a 
base of other steel.  Or keep checking around the "junk yard"  there is a 
lot of 4340 and 4140 out there in lots of items.

Dave Smucker

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Tull" <dantull at numail.org>
To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Super Quenched Dies?

> Chris,
> We should all remember where we came from. All of us had to start 
> somewhere.
> My comments were to "cause to action" to try to get newbies to "just do 
> it".
> Get out there and find a big enough piece to make dies. They're there for 
> free.
> Caterpillar track pins, coil springs off a D-8, etc. are for the asking.
> Right tool for the right job kinda thing.
> Blacksmiths have a hard enough time making ANY money w/o having to pay for 
> tool steel,
> but also don't waste time making dies you might not be happy with.
> One of the great things about this forum is:
> We don't have to keep re-inventing the wheel. Use others expertise.
> "Sharing of information."
> Yes, I agree, one of B/S'ng biggest problems is the 90% ratio of hobbyist 
> to pro's. If you have to do it to make money, you do it different than
> someone doing it for fun and pleasure. But if someone has done it before 
> us, shouldn't we consider their "trial and error"?
> You can forge a leaf MANY different ways,  but if you had to make 200 of 
> them( and the customer didn't know the difference)
> would you do it the hardest way?
>
> I do not mean to put down experimentation, some things are done way too 
> long just because" that's the way  we've always done it".
> Super quench has it's place.  Tooling for repetitive operations is not it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris Kilpatrick" <crimsonkil at lycos.com>
> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Super Quenched Dies?
>
>
> I have spring shop drops, lumber yard bandsaw blade, a couple of axles and 
> other odds and ends, However, none of them is large enough for a power 
> hammer die.  My point was not to be snide or demeaning, but to help those 
> professional smiths out there remember some of us are not full time 
> smiths, with well stocked smithies.
>
> -Chris K.
>
>
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