[TheForge] Super Quenched Dies?

Wed Apr 20 10:26:18 EDT 2005

I just replaced the old dies on my Little Giant.
Mild steel, hardfaced.
Hardfacing probably hardens a deeper layer on the surface than 
superquench, and the dies had still deformed over time. When I attempted 
to grind them true, I ended up with a die of very uneven hardness. For 
strictly hot work it might have been ok for a while, but I use a lot of 
top tools and it got badly gouged in the soft spots. Never happens with 
my 4340 dies. A local machinist cut the top die from a chunk that I had 
for about $60, then I ordered an oversized bottom die from Sid for a 
little more.
My two cents' worth, currently trading at $0.012 ...
Andy G.

schade at acegroup.cc wrote:

>
> On Apr 20, 2005, at 7:20 AM, Ron Childers wrote:
>
>> Echo Dan: *Don't*
>>
>>
>
>
> Why not?
>
> Dave Mudge reported that he has been using unhardened 4140 for a 
> period of time with no wear. Surely the superquenched dies would be as 
> hard as unhardened 4140.
>
> If you are worried about the superquenched dies being too hard due to 
> unknown carbon content use 1018.
>
> I say go for it Carl. 1018 is readily available, cheap and easy to 
> work with.
>
> Here is what Dave Brown had to say about Superquench...
>
> Bob
> __________
>
>> http://www.lametalsmiths.org/news/robb_gunter.htm
>
>
>>
>> Whether its on the internet group "theforge", at ABANA chapter 
>> conferences, or just general discussion between a couple of friendly 
>> smiths, when the subject of Robb Gunter's "Super Quench" comes up, 
>> most of it is fact, but some of what is passed around is erroneous. 
>> Yes, there are some errors, but generally minor. There is often a 
>> great deal of disbelief as to the efficacy of this Super Quench. 
>> Here's what he had to say about it at the Guild of Metalsmiths 1997 
>> Fall Conference: 
>>
>> Before the Bessemer process made it feasible to effectively control 
>> the amount of carbon in steel, blacksmiths generally had only iron or 
>> tool steel to work with. The Bessemer process gave the steel 
>> manufacturers the ability to produce steel in a variety of carbon 
>> levels. Mild steel (1005, 1018, and the like) was touted as the all 
>> purpose steel destined to replace wrought iron. The manufacturers 
>> claimed that it was also suitable for many tools, but that it should 
>> be quenched in a solution of sodium hydroxide. 
>>
>> At Sandia Labs, Robb and his cohorts experimented with this lye 
>> quench and, a bit to their surprise, they found that mild steel 
>> hardened considerably more that expected. Metallurgists and others 
>> will tell you quite readily that mild steel won't harden. It may get 
>> a little harder than if annealed, however it doesn't harden in the 
>> typical toolmaker's sense of hardening. Generally speaking, in a 
>> plain water quench you shouldn't expect to get more than Rockwell 
>> ratings in the low to mid 30's. Robb found that the sodium hydroxide 
>> quench resulted in average Rockwell ratings in the 43-45 range, with 
>> an occasional test result as high as 48. 
>>
>> So, Robb started using this solution at Sandia Labs, but installed a 
>> vented hood system over the quench tank. This stuff is pretty harsh 
>> and the need for a vented hood was a no-brainer.
>>
>> Then OSHA arrived on the scene and insisted that the use of the 
>> sodium hydroxide solution cease. The result was that Robb and the 
>> Sandia Labs metallurgical lab crew went to work to find a replacement 
>> solution. It had to give hardness results comparable to the sodium 
>> hydroxide solution, and it should be bio-degradable if possible. The 
>> result of their experimentation was what is now generally referred to 
>> as Gunter's Super Quench. The formulation is as follows: 
>>     •     5 gallons of water (This a good volume to work with for 
>> quenching, and there are plenty of buckets and pails around just the 
>> right size.) 
>>
>>  
>>     •     5 lbs table salt (plain or iodized, canning salt or rock 
>> salt, it makes no difference.) 
>>
>>  
>>     •     32 oz Dawn Liquid Dishwashing Detergent (blue. Blue was 
>> chosen because that's what happened to be available at the moment. It 
>> was noted later on that as the solution deteriorated to the point 
>> that it should be disposed of, the color slowly changed to green. 
>> Hence, the blue detergent is recommended. Any other blue colored 
>> liquid detergent could work just as good.) 
>>
>>  
>>     •     8 oz Shaklee Basic I. (The solution needs a surfactant to 
>> maximize contact between the solution and the piece being quenched. 
>> Amway Basic H will also work. Your local farmer's supply should be 
>> able to help here, as similar surfactants are used to facilitate the 
>> distribution of fertilizer in soil. In response to a question from 
>> the viewing stands, Robb said that just about any wetting agent 
>> should do, even the stuff photo film developers use. Just follow 
>> directions on amount of agent to be added to a given amount of water, 
>> then scale up or down to the 5 gallons of water used in this 
>> formulation.) 
>>
>> Heat your iron to 1550 degrees Fahrenheit, and quench. No tempering 
>> is needed. 
>>
>> So, he mixed up a batch right there in front of us and used it for 
>> his next demonstration. He took a piece of 1/2" 1018 and cut off a 
>> piece about 3" long. This piece was heated in the gas forge, and a 
>> cold chisel end was forged on to it. Robb heated the piece to 1550 
>> (critical temp for mild steel), and quenched it in the solution. He 
>> then took his new "chisel" and proceeded to use it to cut almost 
>> through the parent bar. Then, he did it again. The cut bar and the 
>> chisel were passed around for all to take a good look at. The edge on 
>> the chisel was not deformed in any way. The top had not mushroomed, 
>> nor did it even show any evidence of having been hit with the hammer. 
>> But, so as not to mislead us, Robb said that a chisel of this type 
>> might be good for 7 or 8 cuts maximum. He recommends this quench for 
>> tools such as spring fullers and many treadle hammer 
>> tools/dies/fullers. He showed, and used, one such spring fuller that 
>> is made of mild steel and quenched in the solution. He has been using 
>> this particular fuller for several years with no ill effect. The 
>> fuller is unmarred, and the spring is still strong. 
>>
>> I was impressed, to say the least. I was not the only person there 
>> who was "wowed" by this little "trick". Robb said the quench is good 
>> for anything up to 50 points of carbon. Above this carbon level this 
>> quench should not be used. 
>>
>> The above is how I heard it from Robb Gunter at the Guild of 
>> Metalsmiths 1997 Fall Conference.  
>>
>> Dave Brown
>>  Heritage 'Smithing
>>  Heritage Hill State Historical Park
>>  Green Bay, WI  
>>
>>
>>  
>
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-- 
Andy Gladish, Metalwork
7141 Guemes Island Rd.
Anacortes, WA 98221
Element Forge  www.elementfe.com
mailto: andy at elementfe.com

I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object be what
it may, -- light, shade, and perspective will always make it beautiful.
-John Constable, painter (1776-1837)