[TheForge] disintegrating welding rod

Justin Fellenz sunironworks at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 23 23:03:44 EST 2004 

The problem, indeed, turns out to be lazy welding on my part. I didn't
get full penetration on the bar and the result was a sharp join/stress
riser that as a result probably of the mechanical shifting of the outer
v. inner parts of the metal just tore apart. I was surprised like most
here because tig is usually reasonably strong and ductile. Turns out it
is, works just fine when you actually weld correctly, clean everything
up, do good fitting, v out the grooves and get complete penetration. I
just finished a candlestick made on 4 pieced and then forged with no
problems.

Thanks for the input and happy holidays, all.

JRF
--- "David E. Smucker" <davesmucker at hotmail.com> wrote:

> The use of the TIG to tack weld -- and then flux and forge weld can
> in deed 
> work very well.  I have seen Susan Hutchinson  do very small forge
> welds by 
> using a small "rivet" make from small dia wire to hold two part in
> position 
> to make the forge weld.  She then heats and fluxes the parts and
> makes the 
> weld.  For these very small welds she use a small piece of railroad
> rail as 
> the anvil and puts it right on the forge so the distance from fire to
> anvil 
> is very short.  She even preheats the anvil on the side of her forge
> fire. 
> Really neat to see her work and I would find it hard to believe you
> could 
> make this small of forge weld if I hadn't see it.
> 
> Dave
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Darrell" <darrell at machinemaster.com>
> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] disintegrating welding rod
> 
> 
> > The other option is to treat the TIG weld as a tack and flux and
> forge 
> > weld
> > the part.
> > Darrell
> >
> > http://www.machinemaster.com
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "David E. Smucker" <davesmucker at hotmail.com>
> > To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] disintegrating welding rod
> >
> >
> >> I don't think so Bruce.  Welding rod / wire it very tough in
> almost all
> >> cases -- alloy content is controled so that it is not "hot short"
> in my
> >> terms.  I have used many tig welds in forging applications and
> have never
> >> had them fail.  I think this failure is most likely a lack of 
> >> penataration
> >> with unwelded metal at the root.  This will cause problems just
> like a
> > cold
> >> shunt.  A weld in this type of application needs to be a full
> depth 
> >> groove
> >> or V weld.  You want to go into the fire with 100 percent metal --
> not
> >> something with a crack that will just grow under forging.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Bruce Freeman" <FREEMAB at pt.fdah.com>
> >> To: <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:35 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [TheForge] disintegrating welding rod
> >>
> >>
> >> > Contribution from a non-weldor:
> >> >
> >> > Is it possible that a weld bead could be red-short?  Electric
> welding
> >> > is a melting operation, so it's not clear to me that red-short
> wire or
> >> > rod would be a disadvantage there.  Clearly, such a material
> would fall
> >> > apart when forged, however.
> >> >
> >> > Bruce
> >> > NJ
> >> >
> >> >>>> sunironworks at yahoo.com 12/23/2004 10:07:16 AM >>>
> >> > Yeah, I thought so too. Could be I got some gunk in there or
> like you
> >> > say the different harndesses made a difference. And Ralph's
> suggestion
> >> > that the mechanical distortion caused by heating (especially on
> a
> >> > weldment that's of a different hardness or grain stucture than
> the
> >> > base) is a pausible addition. I'll play with different welds and
> rods
> >> > and see if i can learn something. I have to fix this problem on
> this
> >> > particular bar this morning, so I'll tig it up again--carefully,
> with
> >> > good penetration and cleanliness--normalize and see what
> happens.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks and happy holidays all,
> >> >
> >> > JRF
> >> > --- Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In theory, TIG welds should be the least susceptable to that
> >> > problem.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've found that running the weldment through a normalizing
> cycle
> >> >> first
> >> >> helps...PF
> >> >>
> >> >> TodEstesRN at aol.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In a message dated 12/21/2004 6:29:52 PM Central Standard
> Time,
> >> >> >xlch58 at swbell.net writes:
> >> >> >Justin Fellenz wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>All,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>I've been finding that electric welds, especially tig,
> >> > disintegrate
> >> >> in
> >> >> >>the forge. Last session I cheated and tigged a couple of
> pieces of
> >> >> bar
> >> >> >>together rather than forge-weldng them. I used a general
> purpose
> >> >> mild
> >> >> >>steel gas welding rod (probably RG-45, copper coated) and 2
> 1/2"
> >> >> round
> >> >> >>bars of 1018 or 1020, or, my supplier said, maybe a38. I
> cleaned
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>rods up with a flap wheel, beveled the edges, and burnt em
> >> >> together.
> >> >> >>Looked like good penetration,a little sparking from junk on
> the
> >> >> metal
> >> >> >>but not too bad. But when I heated it up and beat on it with
> a
> >> >> hammer,
> >> >> >>the filler just sort of diappeared leaving gaps between the
> bar
> >> >> ends.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Maybe I didnt get it all the way clean and carbon or scale
> >> > deposits
> >> >> or
> >> >> >>whatever heated up and blew the filler or the HAZ metal out.
> My
> >> >> best
> >> >> >>guess. Anyone else experience this? I find that mig welds
> hold up
> >> >> ok as
> >> >> >>long as the penetration's really good, but where it's not it
> looks
> >> >> like
> >> >> >>the HAZ again just kind of powders and the bead pulls away
> from
> >> > the
> >> >> >>bar.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Thoughts?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Cheers,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>JRF
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >Don't know why that happened but have had good luck Oxy/Acy
> gas
> >> >> welding then
> >> >> >forging.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Time enough for sleep in the grave.
> >> >> >Tod Estes
> >> >> >_______________________________________________
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
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