[TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT] Pyro-boom )
Darrell
[email protected]
Sun Jun 1 23:02:01 2003
Paul,
READ what I wrote. Everyone knows that a balloon will sink to the ground
unless it has helium or hydrogen in it. What I said is that a balloon of R12
is HEAVY. It doesn't sink to the ground, it goes thud. The other gasses you
mentioned are close enough that they mix and stay mixed.
Why then you ask is Ozone in the upper atmosphere. The answer is because the
Ozone is the result of O2 being split by UV from the sun. Any time there is
a hole in the Ozone layer UV rays from the sun will hit O2 and make all of
the Ozone needed.
The "big Ozone hole" over the South Pole was at the end of the cycle of the
year when it was in the place that the sun didn't shine.
In order for the UV rays to break down R12 into the chlorine compounds that
attack Ozone, the R12 would first have to defy gravity and get to the
stratosphere.
The reason that R12 is "SO BAD" is because it is easy to make and the
equipment that uses it is easy to make. That means that so called third
world countries could start storing food and not only pull themselves up but
ruin someone's market for that time of year they couldn't grow their own
food.
For a while, the biggest cash crop being smuggled into this country from
Mexico was not drugs, it was R12.
Darrell
http://www.machinemaster.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Hewitt" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
Pyro-boom )
> This too is amusing. A balloon full of O@ will sink to the ground, as
will
> a balloon full of any flammable gas, nitrogen, CO2, etc, In fact except
> Helium and Hydrogen everything sinks. In fact Ozone sinks to the ground,
so
> I have a question for you How come the stratosphere doesn't sink to the
> ground?
>
> And how come we are not poisoned by CO2 and nitrogen, how come they don't
> sink to the ground also since they are heavy?
>
> There is a real easy answer and you seem to have looked past it...........
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darrell" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> Pyro-boom )
>
>
> > I just can't let that go without a comment. Could you please tell me how
> R12
> > that is vented goes straight to the Ozone? The last time I checked, A
> > balloon filled with R12 feels like it is lead coated. It drops to the
> floor
> > with a thud. Unless you are trying to tell me that it sinks through the
> > earth with such velocity that it shoots out in China going fast enough
to
> > reach the ozone layer.
> > R12 is so much heavier than air that it will sink into the ground. Once
in
> > the ground, the sun can't break it down.
> > The freon scare is straight political garbage.
> > Darrell
> >
> > http://www.machinemaster.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Hewitt" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > Pyro-boom )
> >
> >
> > > Might I also point out its even more illegal to vent R-12 refrigerant
to
> > the
> > > atmosphere, but people recommend making Freon forges?.......At least
> > Propane
> > > will oxidize and turn to various shorter chains as the UV light
attacks
> it
> > > and attaches Oxygen to it. Freon of any type besides being toxic to
> > humans,
> > > goes right past go forgets to collect its 200.00 and burns up the
ozone
> in
> > > the atmosphere because UV light cannot break it down..................
> > >
> > > Grumphh......
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Hewitt" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > > Pyro-boom )
> > >
> > >
> > > > I recycle them for a living, we vacuum pump the gas from the and run
> it
> > > > through a condenser then back into storage tanks. In all
seriousness
> I
> > > > doubt any one on this board is going to attempt to cut open a full
> > > > tank.........
> > > >
> > > > Also since we all have gas forges why would we vent a tank to the
> > > atmosphere
> > > > when we can use it to run our forges till its empty?
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "terry l. ridder" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 8:16 AM
> > > > Subject: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > > Pyro-boom )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > hello;
> > > > >
> > > > > i feel that i need to jump in here concerning cutting propane
> > cylinders
> > > > > and tanks. several safety points and environmental protection
agency
> > > > > regulations need to be restated.
> > > > >
> > > > > 0. venting propane to the atmosphere is against epa regulations.
if
> a
> > > > > propane cylinder and or tank has propane in either gas or liquid
it
> > must
> > > > > be burned off using a propane flare. ( think large weed burner on
> > tripod
> > > > > stand in a vertical position. ) the alternative is to pump the
> > cylinder
> > > > > or tank empty. the pumping tends to labor intensive so most
propane
> > > > > service companies burn it off.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. if a cylinder or tank has a value which will not open ( the
value
> > has
> > > > > failed closed ) the procedure to handle this depends on whether it
> is
> > a
> > > > > cylinder or tank.
> > > > > a cylinder:
> > > > > if at all possible the cylinder should be frozen using
> liquid
> > > > > nitrogen. once the propane has solidified the value is removed and
a
> > new
> > > > > value is installed. the cylinder is allowed to warmup naturally.
> > > > > if the cylinder cannot be frozen and if the failed value
has
> > the
> > > > > screw vent, the screw vent should be opened to allow the cylinder
to
> > > > > vent at a slow rate. remember that propane is heavier than air and
> > > > > collects in low areas. the venting should be reported to the
proper
> > > > > regulatory agency/agencies.
> > > > > a tank:
> > > > > if the tank has an emergency unloader value ( most do ).
an
> > > > > unloader adapter is attached allowing liquid propane to be
> withdrawn.
> > > > > the unloader value allows for either pumping out to an alternate
> > storage
> > > > > facility or for the burning off of the propane. the propane flare
in
> > > > > this case has a vaporizer which allows the liquid propane to
become
> > > > > gaseous propane and burned off using the propane flare.
> > > > > if the tank has a belly value this is used in place of the
> > > > > emergency unloader value ( which is normally located on top of the
> > > > > tank.)
> > > > >
> > > > > i have worked with propane, propane cylinders and tanks for nearly
> 35+
> > > > > years. propane, propane cylinders and tanks need to be respected
and
> > > > > proper safety precautions must be taken. remember the person
> injuried
> > or
> > > > > killed may be you. perhaps worst it may be someone else and you
have
> > to
> > > > > live with the guilt of directly or indirectly causing or
> contributing
> > to
> > > > > their death. in which case you may be rightful sued for wrongful
> death
> > > > > or negligence.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > peter>
> > > > > peter> Paul;
> > > > > peter> A while back we had a discussion about cutting open old
> propane
> > > > tanks
> > > > > peter> and several of us had fairly elaborate precautions we took
> > first.
> > >
> > > > > peter> Clearly you are the expert here...
> > > > > peter> The text below infers that you just jerk the valves and
plugs
> > and
> > > > cut
> > > > > peter> them open straight off...is that right?........Pete
> > > > > peter>
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul Hewitt wrote:
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > paul>
> > > > > paul> We devalve about 500 to 1000 tanks a day, and typically then
> > > > > paul> cut holes in them. The guys with torches usually pride
> > themselves
> > > > on the
> > > > > paul> tanks that become "jet engines" when a tank sits open long
> > enough
> > > > they get
> > > > > paul> a perfect mixture and then will burn inside the tanks
emitting
> > the
> > > > hot
> > > > > paul> exhaust gasses out the hole that's been cut. After about a
2
> to
> > 3
> > > > second
> > > > > paul> interval they burn out, but do not explode the tank.
> > > > > paul>
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Terry L. Ridder ><>
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