[TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT] Pyro-boom )
Dan Scheid
[email protected]
Mon Jun 2 02:46:02 2003
while R12 is heavy Ozone is not O2 it is O3 IIRC. and in this case I don't
think your theory for why R12 is bad. if it was true then big business would
have been on the Ban R12 Band wagon but they were not. They were on the we
can't live with out R12 wagon. Until the band passed a poof out comes the
new stuff at half the price that r12 was when it was cheep.
Dan Scheid (who does think there are greedy plans out there just this is not
one of them)
> Paul,
> READ what I wrote. Everyone knows that a balloon will sink to the ground
> unless it has helium or hydrogen in it. What I said is that a balloon of
R12
> is HEAVY. It doesn't sink to the ground, it goes thud. The other gasses
you
> mentioned are close enough that they mix and stay mixed.
> Why then you ask is Ozone in the upper atmosphere. The answer is because
the
> Ozone is the result of O2 being split by UV from the sun. Any time there
is
> a hole in the Ozone layer UV rays from the sun will hit O2 and make all of
> the Ozone needed.
> The "big Ozone hole" over the South Pole was at the end of the cycle of
the
> year when it was in the place that the sun didn't shine.
> In order for the UV rays to break down R12 into the chlorine compounds
that
> attack Ozone, the R12 would first have to defy gravity and get to the
> stratosphere.
> The reason that R12 is "SO BAD" is because it is easy to make and the
> equipment that uses it is easy to make. That means that so called third
> world countries could start storing food and not only pull themselves up
but
> ruin someone's market for that time of year they couldn't grow their own
> food.
> For a while, the biggest cash crop being smuggled into this country from
> Mexico was not drugs, it was R12.
> Darrell
>
> http://www.machinemaster.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Hewitt" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 5:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> Pyro-boom )
>
>
> > This too is amusing. A balloon full of O@ will sink to the ground, as
> will
> > a balloon full of any flammable gas, nitrogen, CO2, etc, In fact except
> > Helium and Hydrogen everything sinks. In fact Ozone sinks to the
ground,
> so
> > I have a question for you How come the stratosphere doesn't sink to the
> > ground?
> >
> > And how come we are not poisoned by CO2 and nitrogen, how come they
don't
> > sink to the ground also since they are heavy?
> >
> > There is a real easy answer and you seem to have looked past
it...........
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Darrell" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 3:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > Pyro-boom )
> >
> >
> > > I just can't let that go without a comment. Could you please tell me
how
> > R12
> > > that is vented goes straight to the Ozone? The last time I checked, A
> > > balloon filled with R12 feels like it is lead coated. It drops to the
> > floor
> > > with a thud. Unless you are trying to tell me that it sinks through
the
> > > earth with such velocity that it shoots out in China going fast enough
> to
> > > reach the ozone layer.
> > > R12 is so much heavier than air that it will sink into the ground.
Once
> in
> > > the ground, the sun can't break it down.
> > > The freon scare is straight political garbage.
> > > Darrell
> > >
> > > http://www.machinemaster.com
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Hewitt" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:23 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > > Pyro-boom )
> > >
> > >
> > > > Might I also point out its even more illegal to vent R-12
refrigerant
> to
> > > the
> > > > atmosphere, but people recommend making Freon forges?.......At least
> > > Propane
> > > > will oxidize and turn to various shorter chains as the UV light
> attacks
> > it
> > > > and attaches Oxygen to it. Freon of any type besides being toxic to
> > > humans,
> > > > goes right past go forgets to collect its 200.00 and burns up the
> ozone
> > in
> > > > the atmosphere because UV light cannot break it
down..................
> > > >
> > > > Grumphh......
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Paul Hewitt" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:14 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > > > Pyro-boom )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I recycle them for a living, we vacuum pump the gas from the and
run
> > it
> > > > > through a condenser then back into storage tanks. In all
> seriousness
> > I
> > > > > doubt any one on this board is going to attempt to cut open a full
> > > > > tank.........
> > > > >
> > > > > Also since we all have gas forges why would we vent a tank to the
> > > > atmosphere
> > > > > when we can use it to run our forges till its empty?
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "terry l. ridder" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 8:16 AM
> > > > > Subject: [TheForge] propane cylinder and tank safety ( was [OT]
> > > > Pyro-boom )
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > hello;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i feel that i need to jump in here concerning cutting propane
> > > cylinders
> > > > > > and tanks. several safety points and environmental protection
> agency
> > > > > > regulations need to be restated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 0. venting propane to the atmosphere is against epa regulations.
> if
> > a
> > > > > > propane cylinder and or tank has propane in either gas or liquid
> it
> > > must
> > > > > > be burned off using a propane flare. ( think large weed burner
on
> > > tripod
> > > > > > stand in a vertical position. ) the alternative is to pump the
> > > cylinder
> > > > > > or tank empty. the pumping tends to labor intensive so most
> propane
> > > > > > service companies burn it off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. if a cylinder or tank has a value which will not open ( the
> value
> > > has
> > > > > > failed closed ) the procedure to handle this depends on whether
it
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > > cylinder or tank.
> > > > > > a cylinder:
> > > > > > if at all possible the cylinder should be frozen using
> > liquid
> > > > > > nitrogen. once the propane has solidified the value is removed
and
> a
> > > new
> > > > > > value is installed. the cylinder is allowed to warmup naturally.
> > > > > > if the cylinder cannot be frozen and if the failed value
> has
> > > the
> > > > > > screw vent, the screw vent should be opened to allow the
cylinder
> to
> > > > > > vent at a slow rate. remember that propane is heavier than air
and
> > > > > > collects in low areas. the venting should be reported to the
> proper
> > > > > > regulatory agency/agencies.
> > > > > > a tank:
> > > > > > if the tank has an emergency unloader value ( most do ).
> an
> > > > > > unloader adapter is attached allowing liquid propane to be
> > withdrawn.
> > > > > > the unloader value allows for either pumping out to an alternate
> > > storage
> > > > > > facility or for the burning off of the propane. the propane
flare
> in
> > > > > > this case has a vaporizer which allows the liquid propane to
> become
> > > > > > gaseous propane and burned off using the propane flare.
> > > > > > if the tank has a belly value this is used in place of
the
> > > > > > emergency unloader value ( which is normally located on top of
the
> > > > > > tank.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i have worked with propane, propane cylinders and tanks for
nearly
> > 35+
> > > > > > years. propane, propane cylinders and tanks need to be respected
> and
> > > > > > proper safety precautions must be taken. remember the person
> > injuried
> > > or
> > > > > > killed may be you. perhaps worst it may be someone else and you
> have
> > > to
> > > > > > live with the guilt of directly or indirectly causing or
> > contributing
> > > to
> > > > > > their death. in which case you may be rightful sued for wrongful
> > death
> > > > > > or negligence.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > peter>
> > > > > > peter> Paul;
> > > > > > peter> A while back we had a discussion about cutting open old
> > propane
> > > > > tanks
> > > > > > peter> and several of us had fairly elaborate precautions we
took
> > > first.
> > > >
> > > > > > peter> Clearly you are the expert here...
> > > > > > peter> The text below infers that you just jerk the valves and
> plugs
> > > and
> > > > > cut
> > > > > > peter> them open straight off...is that right?........Pete
> > > > > > peter>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul Hewitt wrote:
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > paul>
> > > > > > paul> We devalve about 500 to 1000 tanks a day, and typically
then
> > > > > > paul> cut holes in them. The guys with torches usually pride
> > > themselves
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > paul> tanks that become "jet engines" when a tank sits open
long
> > > enough
> > > > > they get
> > > > > > paul> a perfect mixture and then will burn inside the tanks
> emitting
> > > the
> > > > > hot
> > > > > > paul> exhaust gasses out the hole that's been cut. After about
a
> 2
> > to
> > > 3
> > > > > second
> > > > > > paul> interval they burn out, but do not explode the tank.
> > > > > > paul>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Terry L. Ridder ><>
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