[TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer

Sun Dec 21 14:05:08 2003

Hey Ralph,
I came in on this thread late; I can call up the Hebos web site but it won't
allow me to navigate around in it.
I had a friend who was very knowledgeable in hydraulics.
About 10 years ago he said that it should be possible to build a hydraulic
hammer that would cycle almost as fast as an air hammer by using a valve, I
think he called it something like a regenerating valve.
The idea is to loop the return flow from the cylinder directly into the
intake side of the cylinder while the piston is under a light load.  When
the load increases past a preset pressure, the valve closes and the pump
circuit completes the stroke. So the intake side of the cylinder is being
filled by the output side of the cylinder plus the normal system flow.
. When the piston reverses stroke the RG valve opens again and repeats the
process in the opposite direction.
That's about all I can remember. I believe he mentioned something about some
kind of specialized check valves also but OFD is clouding my memory.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer


>         Thanks Dave, your explaination of the side unit makes much more
> sense to me than some sort of increaser/reducer, but when I saw that
coupler
> it seemed like a possibility.
>
>         If it has a 32 HP motor, then it will deliver up to 32 gallons per
> minute at 1500 psi - so that would be half a gallon to cycle the cylinder
up
> and down for what ever the stroke length is.  That's enough to do some
> serious work on a hammer ram as that is about the total flow on a small to
> medium sized backhoe for all it's functions.  It has to be an interesting
> circuit that would yield a 1 second travel time for the piston's full
> cycle/stroke.  Maybe they are doing something similar to a self contained
> hammer and using high volume/low pressure, which could mean they are
> possibly pumping 64 gallons per minute at 750 psi thru large hoses &
ports.
>         That would compute out to a 4" cylinder with a 10" stroke yielding
> 9,000 psi for each stroke happening in that 1 second to do a full cycle.
It
> would also take 1 1/2" lines to handle that flow rate.........pretty big
> fittings for a 4" cylinder.  :-)
>         Now I'd really like to see one of these hammers work.
>
> Ralph
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 7:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
>
>
> > Ralph,
> >
> > "The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40 HP so
> > there would be some serious oil flowing.  What looks like a gear
> > reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
> > wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and framework."
> >
> > I concur about the size of the power unit.  They have a mistranslation
on
> > the English page when they say "supply voltage 23,5 kw"  the German says
> > "connected power -- 23,500 watts" or about 32 horsepower.   What I think
> you
> > are calling a "gear reducer?/increaser?" is in fact a high flow control
> > valve that provides the power to the press ram.  It is mounted here to
be
> > both close to the cylinder and close to what I "guess" are pilot limit
> > switch valves mounted on the face of the press on an adjustable frame --
> > again I am guessing here.  I think that the valve is a Rexroth
> proportional
> > valve (similar to a servo valve) which means that it is not just bang /
> bang
> > on and off but allows a control reduction of the flow as the ram nears
the
> > end of its travel in each direction.  Most likely the control is a meter
> out
> > flow control with a "soft" ending to the stroke in each direction.  In
the
> > down stroke the strike is anything but soft but over travel would be
> > softened.
> >
> > Dave Smucker
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> >
> >
> > >         Reis,  Thanks for posting the information on the Hebo tools.
I
> > > really enjoyed looking thru their web site and many of the tools they
> have
> > > developed to do iron work gave me good ideas on how to approach some
> items
> > > in my press, as well as other jigging ideas.
> > >         I've been working on a modular scroll system with plug ins to
> keep
> > > storing dies and fixtures to a lesser space.  I like the ideas I got
to
> > put
> > > these on a gear reducer turnstyle to automate these fixtures a bit
more.
> > To
> > > be able to turn out nice rings, hoops, and ovals will be a nice
addition
> > to
> > > making designs come about faster.
> > >
> > >         The rep from Glaser was at the last ABANA conference in
> LaCrosse.
> > I
> > > got one of his catalogs and really liked their power rolling
equipment.
> > > Not that I can afford to purchase them, but I enjoy making my own
tools
> > and
> > > tooling.  I think that is also the key if you are into forge - fab
work
> as
> > > well.  If you can make your own tooling - it will make your work a bit
> > > different that the usual stuff made from factory stamped and pressed
> > parts.
> > >         To do the detail on a nice piece of ironwork is really fun,
but
> I
> > > don't see that type of expendable cash around me that often.  When
that
> > work
> > > does come, I find it challenging and pleasing to do something beyond
my
> > > normal range of work that I do to fit customers budgets 90% of the
time.
> > >
> > >         I would also like to know more about the hydraulic hammer
> > circuitry.
> > > Who knows what could come from that.  It looks like 1 hit per second
> with
> > a
> > > 200+ lb ram - but from the dies shown below this seems to yield nice
> > coining
> > > quality strikes as a result.
> > >         The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40
HP
> so
> > > there would be some serious oil flowing.  What looks like a gear
> > > reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
> > > wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and
framework.
> > :-)
> > >         It sort of has a look of drop hammers used in stamping out
> > sergical
> > > instruments to it......but those hit three times a minute as board
> hammers
> > > I've seen in action.  There guide systems do yield incredible accuracy
> and
> > > results on small tools - similar to the detail shown in those dies
below
> > the
> > > hammer.  I really enjoyed the owners tour of a shop that made their
own
> > > drop/board hammer dies.  Very talented folks to make dies like shown
at
> > the
> > > bottom of the page.  They had positives and "hobed" the die the
evening
> we
> > > were there, that yielded the imprint results that then had to be
> cleaned,
> > > tapered, and fitted to act as forming dies, or striping dies.
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ries Niemi" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 1:25 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The germans make some serious tools. Hebo is not the only company
> > > > making mechanized blacksmith tools like this- There is another
german
> > > > company named Glaser, and a spanish company as well.
> > > > I hope someone will either buy one of the hydraulic hammers, or make
> > > > one, and we can find out how they really work.
> > > > Indital, and several other off the shelf forging supply houses do
use
> > > > Hebo style machines. They also handforge some of the parts, but in a
> > > > production shop. There is a company in mexico now that is using a
> > > > combination of these kinds of machines and hand forging to supply a
> lot
> > > > of pickets and parts to the US.
> > > > Which brings up the question- Is the tool evil? That is, if you can
> > > > just buy a machine that makes good looking scrolls, or perfect
twists,
> > > > is it somehow inherently evil because it replaces hand labor?
> > > > Personally, I think the thing that is missing from all the premade
> > > > pickets is good design, which is why I would never buy any of them.
> > > > After you have hand forged a couple of hundred basket twists, as we
> did
> > > > on a job a couple of years ago, you lose your desire to prove you
can
> > > > do it. It becomes more important whether you can buy something that
is
> > > > as good as what you can make.  So I am not saying I wouldnt buy
> premade
> > > > parts, but most of the stuff I have seen commercially made looks
wrong
> > > > somehow. It may be copied from european sources, but my guess is it
is
> > > > just whatever is easiest to make with the machine, and what you can
> > > > order off the shelf tooling for.
> > > > When computers first came out, I had a lot of graphic designer
friends
> > > > who said they would never be as good as hand drawn and laid out
work.
> > > > Of course, they were wrong, and many of those same people now use
> > > > computers. Because a tool is only as good as the mind and hands
using
> > > > it. A lot of people make the same cheesy looking stuff with
> Illustrator
> > > > and Photoshop. And a few really good graphic designers make great
> stuff
> > > > no matter what tools they use, and so they use the best tool for any
> > > > particular job.
> > > > I think the same principal applies to these fancy german ornamental
> > > > iron machines. Several companies are selling mass produced "hand
> > > > forged" items made on these machines, and they dont look very good.
> But
> > > > the guys who are running the machines are just punching the clock,
> > > > running parts all day.
> > > > Not to blow my own horn, but since I bought my Hebo, I have been
doing
> > > > all sorts of stuff with it that is not shown in the catalog, that
the
> > > > germans have probably never thought of. The thing is amazing in its
> > > > power and control, and I am just beginning to think of possiblities.
> > > > Plus it allows me to design a piece with 300 identical twists in it,
> > > > and have my 9 year old run them for me in a couple of hours. So I am
> > > > convinced that in the right hands, any tool can produce new and
> > > > interesting work, and in bored and uninspired hands, it will produce
> > > > boring and uninspiring work
> > > >
> > > > ries
> > > >
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