[TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
Jerry Frost
[email protected]
Mon Dec 22 00:45:09 2003
In my looking for self contained hammer patent drawings I ran into a 1914
patent for an inproved fluid drive hammer by Nazel. Patent # us1,084,707
It operates basically the same as the pneumatic hammers but with VERY
reliable pressure relief valves and is sealed so the oil doesn't escape the
system.
Frosty
------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks
Meadow Lakes, AK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> Hey Ralph,
> I came in on this thread late; I can call up the Hebos web site but it
won't
> allow me to navigate around in it.
> I had a friend who was very knowledgeable in hydraulics.
> About 10 years ago he said that it should be possible to build a hydraulic
> hammer that would cycle almost as fast as an air hammer by using a valve,
I
> think he called it something like a regenerating valve.
> The idea is to loop the return flow from the cylinder directly into the
> intake side of the cylinder while the piston is under a light load. When
> the load increases past a preset pressure, the valve closes and the pump
> circuit completes the stroke. So the intake side of the cylinder is being
> filled by the output side of the cylinder plus the normal system flow.
> . When the piston reverses stroke the RG valve opens again and repeats the
> process in the opposite direction.
> That's about all I can remember. I believe he mentioned something about
some
> kind of specialized check valves also but OFD is clouding my memory.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
>
>
> > Thanks Dave, your explaination of the side unit makes much more
> > sense to me than some sort of increaser/reducer, but when I saw that
> coupler
> > it seemed like a possibility.
> >
> > If it has a 32 HP motor, then it will deliver up to 32 gallons
per
> > minute at 1500 psi - so that would be half a gallon to cycle the
cylinder
> up
> > and down for what ever the stroke length is. That's enough to do some
> > serious work on a hammer ram as that is about the total flow on a small
to
> > medium sized backhoe for all it's functions. It has to be an
interesting
> > circuit that would yield a 1 second travel time for the piston's full
> > cycle/stroke. Maybe they are doing something similar to a self
contained
> > hammer and using high volume/low pressure, which could mean they are
> > possibly pumping 64 gallons per minute at 750 psi thru large hoses &
> ports.
> > That would compute out to a 4" cylinder with a 10" stroke
yielding
> > 9,000 psi for each stroke happening in that 1 second to do a full cycle.
> It
> > would also take 1 1/2" lines to handle that flow rate.........pretty big
> > fittings for a 4" cylinder. :-)
> > Now I'd really like to see one of these hammers work.
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 7:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> >
> >
> > > Ralph,
> > >
> > > "The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40 HP so
> > > there would be some serious oil flowing. What looks like a gear
> > > reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
> > > wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and
framework."
> > >
> > > I concur about the size of the power unit. They have a mistranslation
> on
> > > the English page when they say "supply voltage 23,5 kw" the German
says
> > > "connected power -- 23,500 watts" or about 32 horsepower. What I
think
> > you
> > > are calling a "gear reducer?/increaser?" is in fact a high flow
control
> > > valve that provides the power to the press ram. It is mounted here to
> be
> > > both close to the cylinder and close to what I "guess" are pilot limit
> > > switch valves mounted on the face of the press on an adjustable
frame --
> > > again I am guessing here. I think that the valve is a Rexroth
> > proportional
> > > valve (similar to a servo valve) which means that it is not just bang
/
> > bang
> > > on and off but allows a control reduction of the flow as the ram nears
> the
> > > end of its travel in each direction. Most likely the control is a
meter
> > out
> > > flow control with a "soft" ending to the stroke in each direction. In
> the
> > > down stroke the strike is anything but soft but over travel would be
> > > softened.
> > >
> > > Dave Smucker
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:48 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> > >
> > >
> > > > Reis, Thanks for posting the information on the Hebo tools.
> I
> > > > really enjoyed looking thru their web site and many of the tools
they
> > have
> > > > developed to do iron work gave me good ideas on how to approach some
> > items
> > > > in my press, as well as other jigging ideas.
> > > > I've been working on a modular scroll system with plug ins
to
> > keep
> > > > storing dies and fixtures to a lesser space. I like the ideas I got
> to
> > > put
> > > > these on a gear reducer turnstyle to automate these fixtures a bit
> more.
> > > To
> > > > be able to turn out nice rings, hoops, and ovals will be a nice
> addition
> > > to
> > > > making designs come about faster.
> > > >
> > > > The rep from Glaser was at the last ABANA conference in
> > LaCrosse.
> > > I
> > > > got one of his catalogs and really liked their power rolling
> equipment.
> > > > Not that I can afford to purchase them, but I enjoy making my own
> tools
> > > and
> > > > tooling. I think that is also the key if you are into forge - fab
> work
> > as
> > > > well. If you can make your own tooling - it will make your work a
bit
> > > > different that the usual stuff made from factory stamped and pressed
> > > parts.
> > > > To do the detail on a nice piece of ironwork is really fun,
> but
> > I
> > > > don't see that type of expendable cash around me that often. When
> that
> > > work
> > > > does come, I find it challenging and pleasing to do something beyond
> my
> > > > normal range of work that I do to fit customers budgets 90% of the
> time.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to know more about the hydraulic hammer
> > > circuitry.
> > > > Who knows what could come from that. It looks like 1 hit per second
> > with
> > > a
> > > > 200+ lb ram - but from the dies shown below this seems to yield nice
> > > coining
> > > > quality strikes as a result.
> > > > The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40
> HP
> > so
> > > > there would be some serious oil flowing. What looks like a gear
> > > > reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me
seriously
> > > > wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and
> framework.
> > > :-)
> > > > It sort of has a look of drop hammers used in stamping out
> > > sergical
> > > > instruments to it......but those hit three times a minute as board
> > hammers
> > > > I've seen in action. There guide systems do yield incredible
accuracy
> > and
> > > > results on small tools - similar to the detail shown in those dies
> below
> > > the
> > > > hammer. I really enjoyed the owners tour of a shop that made their
> own
> > > > drop/board hammer dies. Very talented folks to make dies like shown
> at
> > > the
> > > > bottom of the page. They had positives and "hobed" the die the
> evening
> > we
> > > > were there, that yielded the imprint results that then had to be
> > cleaned,
> > > > tapered, and fitted to act as forming dies, or striping dies.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ries Niemi" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 1:25 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The germans make some serious tools. Hebo is not the only company
> > > > > making mechanized blacksmith tools like this- There is another
> german
> > > > > company named Glaser, and a spanish company as well.
> > > > > I hope someone will either buy one of the hydraulic hammers, or
make
> > > > > one, and we can find out how they really work.
> > > > > Indital, and several other off the shelf forging supply houses do
> use
> > > > > Hebo style machines. They also handforge some of the parts, but in
a
> > > > > production shop. There is a company in mexico now that is using a
> > > > > combination of these kinds of machines and hand forging to supply
a
> > lot
> > > > > of pickets and parts to the US.
> > > > > Which brings up the question- Is the tool evil? That is, if you
can
> > > > > just buy a machine that makes good looking scrolls, or perfect
> twists,
> > > > > is it somehow inherently evil because it replaces hand labor?
> > > > > Personally, I think the thing that is missing from all the premade
> > > > > pickets is good design, which is why I would never buy any of
them.
> > > > > After you have hand forged a couple of hundred basket twists, as
we
> > did
> > > > > on a job a couple of years ago, you lose your desire to prove you
> can
> > > > > do it. It becomes more important whether you can buy something
that
> is
> > > > > as good as what you can make. So I am not saying I wouldnt buy
> > premade
> > > > > parts, but most of the stuff I have seen commercially made looks
> wrong
> > > > > somehow. It may be copied from european sources, but my guess is
it
> is
> > > > > just whatever is easiest to make with the machine, and what you
can
> > > > > order off the shelf tooling for.
> > > > > When computers first came out, I had a lot of graphic designer
> friends
> > > > > who said they would never be as good as hand drawn and laid out
> work.
> > > > > Of course, they were wrong, and many of those same people now use
> > > > > computers. Because a tool is only as good as the mind and hands
> using
> > > > > it. A lot of people make the same cheesy looking stuff with
> > Illustrator
> > > > > and Photoshop. And a few really good graphic designers make great
> > stuff
> > > > > no matter what tools they use, and so they use the best tool for
any
> > > > > particular job.
> > > > > I think the same principal applies to these fancy german
ornamental
> > > > > iron machines. Several companies are selling mass produced "hand
> > > > > forged" items made on these machines, and they dont look very
good.
> > But
> > > > > the guys who are running the machines are just punching the clock,
> > > > > running parts all day.
> > > > > Not to blow my own horn, but since I bought my Hebo, I have been
> doing
> > > > > all sorts of stuff with it that is not shown in the catalog, that
> the
> > > > > germans have probably never thought of. The thing is amazing in
its
> > > > > power and control, and I am just beginning to think of
possiblities.
> > > > > Plus it allows me to design a piece with 300 identical twists in
it,
> > > > > and have my 9 year old run them for me in a couple of hours. So I
am
> > > > > convinced that in the right hands, any tool can produce new and
> > > > > interesting work, and in bored and uninspired hands, it will
produce
> > > > > boring and uninspiring work
> > > > >
> > > > > ries
> > > > >
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