[TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
Ralph Sproul
[email protected]
Sat Dec 20 22:23:01 2003
Thanks Dave, your explaination of the side unit makes much more
sense to me than some sort of increaser/reducer, but when I saw that coupler
it seemed like a possibility.
If it has a 32 HP motor, then it will deliver up to 32 gallons per
minute at 1500 psi - so that would be half a gallon to cycle the cylinder up
and down for what ever the stroke length is. That's enough to do some
serious work on a hammer ram as that is about the total flow on a small to
medium sized backhoe for all it's functions. It has to be an interesting
circuit that would yield a 1 second travel time for the piston's full
cycle/stroke. Maybe they are doing something similar to a self contained
hammer and using high volume/low pressure, which could mean they are
possibly pumping 64 gallons per minute at 750 psi thru large hoses & ports.
That would compute out to a 4" cylinder with a 10" stroke yielding
9,000 psi for each stroke happening in that 1 second to do a full cycle. It
would also take 1 1/2" lines to handle that flow rate.........pretty big
fittings for a 4" cylinder. :-)
Now I'd really like to see one of these hammers work.
Ralph
----- Original Message -----
From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> Ralph,
>
> "The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40 HP so
> there would be some serious oil flowing. What looks like a gear
> reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
> wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and framework."
>
> I concur about the size of the power unit. They have a mistranslation on
> the English page when they say "supply voltage 23,5 kw" the German says
> "connected power -- 23,500 watts" or about 32 horsepower. What I think
you
> are calling a "gear reducer?/increaser?" is in fact a high flow control
> valve that provides the power to the press ram. It is mounted here to be
> both close to the cylinder and close to what I "guess" are pilot limit
> switch valves mounted on the face of the press on an adjustable frame --
> again I am guessing here. I think that the valve is a Rexroth
proportional
> valve (similar to a servo valve) which means that it is not just bang /
bang
> on and off but allows a control reduction of the flow as the ram nears the
> end of its travel in each direction. Most likely the control is a meter
out
> flow control with a "soft" ending to the stroke in each direction. In the
> down stroke the strike is anything but soft but over travel would be
> softened.
>
> Dave Smucker
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
>
>
> > Reis, Thanks for posting the information on the Hebo tools. I
> > really enjoyed looking thru their web site and many of the tools they
have
> > developed to do iron work gave me good ideas on how to approach some
items
> > in my press, as well as other jigging ideas.
> > I've been working on a modular scroll system with plug ins to
keep
> > storing dies and fixtures to a lesser space. I like the ideas I got to
> put
> > these on a gear reducer turnstyle to automate these fixtures a bit more.
> To
> > be able to turn out nice rings, hoops, and ovals will be a nice addition
> to
> > making designs come about faster.
> >
> > The rep from Glaser was at the last ABANA conference in
LaCrosse.
> I
> > got one of his catalogs and really liked their power rolling equipment.
> > Not that I can afford to purchase them, but I enjoy making my own tools
> and
> > tooling. I think that is also the key if you are into forge - fab work
as
> > well. If you can make your own tooling - it will make your work a bit
> > different that the usual stuff made from factory stamped and pressed
> parts.
> > To do the detail on a nice piece of ironwork is really fun, but
I
> > don't see that type of expendable cash around me that often. When that
> work
> > does come, I find it challenging and pleasing to do something beyond my
> > normal range of work that I do to fit customers budgets 90% of the time.
> >
> > I would also like to know more about the hydraulic hammer
> circuitry.
> > Who knows what could come from that. It looks like 1 hit per second
with
> a
> > 200+ lb ram - but from the dies shown below this seems to yield nice
> coining
> > quality strikes as a result.
> > The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40 HP
so
> > there would be some serious oil flowing. What looks like a gear
> > reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
> > wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and framework.
> :-)
> > It sort of has a look of drop hammers used in stamping out
> sergical
> > instruments to it......but those hit three times a minute as board
hammers
> > I've seen in action. There guide systems do yield incredible accuracy
and
> > results on small tools - similar to the detail shown in those dies below
> the
> > hammer. I really enjoyed the owners tour of a shop that made their own
> > drop/board hammer dies. Very talented folks to make dies like shown at
> the
> > bottom of the page. They had positives and "hobed" the die the evening
we
> > were there, that yielded the imprint results that then had to be
cleaned,
> > tapered, and fitted to act as forming dies, or striping dies.
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ries Niemi" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 1:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The germans make some serious tools. Hebo is not the only company
> > > making mechanized blacksmith tools like this- There is another german
> > > company named Glaser, and a spanish company as well.
> > > I hope someone will either buy one of the hydraulic hammers, or make
> > > one, and we can find out how they really work.
> > > Indital, and several other off the shelf forging supply houses do use
> > > Hebo style machines. They also handforge some of the parts, but in a
> > > production shop. There is a company in mexico now that is using a
> > > combination of these kinds of machines and hand forging to supply a
lot
> > > of pickets and parts to the US.
> > > Which brings up the question- Is the tool evil? That is, if you can
> > > just buy a machine that makes good looking scrolls, or perfect twists,
> > > is it somehow inherently evil because it replaces hand labor?
> > > Personally, I think the thing that is missing from all the premade
> > > pickets is good design, which is why I would never buy any of them.
> > > After you have hand forged a couple of hundred basket twists, as we
did
> > > on a job a couple of years ago, you lose your desire to prove you can
> > > do it. It becomes more important whether you can buy something that is
> > > as good as what you can make. So I am not saying I wouldnt buy
premade
> > > parts, but most of the stuff I have seen commercially made looks wrong
> > > somehow. It may be copied from european sources, but my guess is it is
> > > just whatever is easiest to make with the machine, and what you can
> > > order off the shelf tooling for.
> > > When computers first came out, I had a lot of graphic designer friends
> > > who said they would never be as good as hand drawn and laid out work.
> > > Of course, they were wrong, and many of those same people now use
> > > computers. Because a tool is only as good as the mind and hands using
> > > it. A lot of people make the same cheesy looking stuff with
Illustrator
> > > and Photoshop. And a few really good graphic designers make great
stuff
> > > no matter what tools they use, and so they use the best tool for any
> > > particular job.
> > > I think the same principal applies to these fancy german ornamental
> > > iron machines. Several companies are selling mass produced "hand
> > > forged" items made on these machines, and they dont look very good.
But
> > > the guys who are running the machines are just punching the clock,
> > > running parts all day.
> > > Not to blow my own horn, but since I bought my Hebo, I have been doing
> > > all sorts of stuff with it that is not shown in the catalog, that the
> > > germans have probably never thought of. The thing is amazing in its
> > > power and control, and I am just beginning to think of possiblities.
> > > Plus it allows me to design a piece with 300 identical twists in it,
> > > and have my 9 year old run them for me in a couple of hours. So I am
> > > convinced that in the right hands, any tool can produce new and
> > > interesting work, and in bored and uninspired hands, it will produce
> > > boring and uninspiring work
> > >
> > > ries
> > >
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