[TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer

Sat Dec 20 19:48:01 2003

Ralph,

"The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40 HP so
there would be some serious oil flowing.  What looks like a gear
reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and framework."

I concur about the size of the power unit.  They have a mistranslation on
the English page when they say "supply voltage 23,5 kw"  the German says
"connected power -- 23,500 watts" or about 32 horsepower.   What I think you
are calling a "gear reducer?/increaser?" is in fact a high flow control
valve that provides the power to the press ram.  It is mounted here to be
both close to the cylinder and close to what I "guess" are pilot limit
switch valves mounted on the face of the press on an adjustable frame -- 
again I am guessing here.  I think that the valve is a Rexroth proportional
valve (similar to a servo valve) which means that it is not just bang / bang
on and off but allows a control reduction of the flow as the ram nears the
end of its travel in each direction.  Most likely the control is a meter out
flow control with a "soft" ending to the stroke in each direction.  In the
down stroke the strike is anything but soft but over travel would be
softened.

Dave Smucker

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer

>         Reis,  Thanks for posting the information on the Hebo tools.  I
> really enjoyed looking thru their web site and many of the tools they have
> developed to do iron work gave me good ideas on how to approach some items
> in my press, as well as other jigging ideas.
>         I've been working on a modular scroll system with plug ins to keep
> storing dies and fixtures to a lesser space.  I like the ideas I got to
put
> these on a gear reducer turnstyle to automate these fixtures a bit more.
To
> be able to turn out nice rings, hoops, and ovals will be a nice addition
to
> making designs come about faster.
>
>         The rep from Glaser was at the last ABANA conference in LaCrosse.
I
> got one of his catalogs and really liked their power rolling equipment.
> Not that I can afford to purchase them, but I enjoy making my own tools
and
> tooling.  I think that is also the key if you are into forge - fab work as
> well.  If you can make your own tooling - it will make your work a bit
> different that the usual stuff made from factory stamped and pressed
parts.
>         To do the detail on a nice piece of ironwork is really fun, but I
> don't see that type of expendable cash around me that often.  When that
work
> does come, I find it challenging and pleasing to do something beyond my
> normal range of work that I do to fit customers budgets 90% of the time.
>
>         I would also like to know more about the hydraulic hammer
circuitry.
> Who knows what could come from that.  It looks like 1 hit per second with
a
> 200+ lb ram - but from the dies shown below this seems to yield nice
coining
> quality strikes as a result.
>         The large power pack behind the hammer looks to be the 30-40 HP so
> there would be some serious oil flowing.  What looks like a gear
> reducer?/increaser? coupled to the side of the unit makes me seriously
> wonder what is going on behind all those guards, casing, and framework.
:-)
>         It sort of has a look of drop hammers used in stamping out
sergical
> instruments to it......but those hit three times a minute as board hammers
> I've seen in action.  There guide systems do yield incredible accuracy and
> results on small tools - similar to the detail shown in those dies below
the
> hammer.  I really enjoyed the owners tour of a shop that made their own
> drop/board hammer dies.  Very talented folks to make dies like shown at
the
> bottom of the page.  They had positives and "hobed" the die the evening we
> were there, that yielded the imprint results that then had to be cleaned,
> tapered, and fitted to act as forming dies, or striping dies.
>
> Ralph
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ries Niemi" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 1:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scroll maker/hydraulic hammer
>
>
> >
> > The germans make some serious tools. Hebo is not the only company
> > making mechanized blacksmith tools like this- There is another german
> > company named Glaser, and a spanish company as well.
> > I hope someone will either buy one of the hydraulic hammers, or make
> > one, and we can find out how they really work.
> > Indital, and several other off the shelf forging supply houses do use
> > Hebo style machines. They also handforge some of the parts, but in a
> > production shop. There is a company in mexico now that is using a
> > combination of these kinds of machines and hand forging to supply a lot
> > of pickets and parts to the US.
> > Which brings up the question- Is the tool evil? That is, if you can
> > just buy a machine that makes good looking scrolls, or perfect twists,
> > is it somehow inherently evil because it replaces hand labor?
> > Personally, I think the thing that is missing from all the premade
> > pickets is good design, which is why I would never buy any of them.
> > After you have hand forged a couple of hundred basket twists, as we did
> > on a job a couple of years ago, you lose your desire to prove you can
> > do it. It becomes more important whether you can buy something that is
> > as good as what you can make.  So I am not saying I wouldnt buy premade
> > parts, but most of the stuff I have seen commercially made looks wrong
> > somehow. It may be copied from european sources, but my guess is it is
> > just whatever is easiest to make with the machine, and what you can
> > order off the shelf tooling for.
> > When computers first came out, I had a lot of graphic designer friends
> > who said they would never be as good as hand drawn and laid out work.
> > Of course, they were wrong, and many of those same people now use
> > computers. Because a tool is only as good as the mind and hands using
> > it. A lot of people make the same cheesy looking stuff with Illustrator
> > and Photoshop. And a few really good graphic designers make great stuff
> > no matter what tools they use, and so they use the best tool for any
> > particular job.
> > I think the same principal applies to these fancy german ornamental
> > iron machines. Several companies are selling mass produced "hand
> > forged" items made on these machines, and they dont look very good. But
> > the guys who are running the machines are just punching the clock,
> > running parts all day.
> > Not to blow my own horn, but since I bought my Hebo, I have been doing
> > all sorts of stuff with it that is not shown in the catalog, that the
> > germans have probably never thought of. The thing is amazing in its
> > power and control, and I am just beginning to think of possiblities.
> > Plus it allows me to design a piece with 300 identical twists in it,
> > and have my 9 year old run them for me in a couple of hours. So I am
> > convinced that in the right hands, any tool can produce new and
> > interesting work, and in bored and uninspired hands, it will produce
> > boring and uninspiring work
> >
> > ries
> >
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