[Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]

Thu Mar 21 13:06:00 2002

 wouldn't an .0001 whatever thickness plateing, vaporize slightly faster than chrome content in the steel?
  Bruce Freeman <[email protected]> wrote: Gentlemen (and ladies):

Let me restate the obvious. While hexavalent chromium is highly toxic and cancer causing, it is highly unlikely that ANY is formed in a forge. I have NOT researched the chemistry in any depth, but chromium trioxide (one chemical in which the chromium is hexavalent) is listed in the Merck Index, in which it states, "Powerful oxidizer; oxidizes alcohol and most other organic substances, sometimes with dangerous violence. Contact with combustable material may cause fire." They mean AT ROOM TEMPERATURE. 

Does this sound like something you're going to get out of a forge? If such a chemical formed at all, it would react immediately with the hot fuel around it.

Let me elaborate for benefit of the chemistry-impared: Metals exist in various oxidation states. The familiar "metal" is oxidation state zero; uncharged; nonionic. When "oxidized" by air, acids or other means, the metals assume a positive charge � ionized. Such ions usually dissolve in water, but many of their compounds may not. Some metals will only assume one specific oxidiation state. Some will have two or more. In different oxidation states the behavior of the metals may be very different. Yes, they're the same element, but, for example, carbon (not a metallic element, but a familiar example) as its +4 oxide (CO2) you exhale, while carbon as its +2 oxide (CO) will kill you. So just because there is a carcinogenic form of chromium does NOT mean that chromium is dangerous to forge. 

There may very well be some reason chromium IS dangerous to forge, but that's not it.

Furthermore, no one on this list thinks twice about forging stainless steel. Yet stainless steel is 10% to 25% chromium! What's the difference if the chromium is only on the surface or is mixed into the steel?

Bruce 
NJ

>>> 03/21/02 10:07AM >>>
new steel is very cheap. why go thru all the trouble for $1.00?

bob
_________

>Hold on Folks!
> We answered the question, but not the problem. Isn't there several
>ways to disassociate chrome plating from steel? Acids or plating
>techniques?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry" 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]
>
>
>> Thanks for all the inputs. Considering I was just looking a a huge pile
>of bumpers behind a friends body shop and as I was looking for some steel in
>about that thickness to work into guards, the pile looked intriguing. None
>the less, I will reconsider and look at some more scrap yards for suitable
>stock. Thanks again,
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> Mike Sweany wrote:
>>
>> > When I was suffering from the effects of the weld fume fever or what
>ever you want to call it, and yes I had those syptoms. I was sent by my MD
>to a specialist that gave me a colonoscopy, cat scan, etc. The results of
>all these tests were inconclusive. Yet I continued to worsen. Oh yes heavy
>metal test too, but chrome is not heavy metal. Yes ,blood work too. SO. How
>do you test for this? I finally went to a lady that looks in your eye (I
>forget the name of the practise) She put me on vitamins and supplements,
>told me to quit welding and probably saved my life.
>> > Phlip 
wrote: OK, guys, this is Randy's response.
>Randy is an MD in internal medicine in
>> > NYC, and is also a teacher at one of the Med Schools there. He knows his
>> > stuff ;-)
>> >
>> > Phlip
>> >
>> > Randy Goldberg MD wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don't have the resources to identify specific products of the
>forging
>> > > process. I can tell you that:
>> > >
>> > > Chromic oxide (CrO) is relatively insoluable and can be disregarded.
>> > > Chromium trioxide (CrO3), however, is very soluable, can easily be
>> > > absorbed through the lungs, and is very very very toxic. From
>> > > Ellenhorn's _Medical Toxicology_: "Ingestion of hexavalent compounds
>> > > (including chromium trioxide) usually leads to abdominal pains,
>> > > vomiting, diarrhea, and intestinal bleeding. Death may ensue during
>the
>> > > initial circulatory collapse. If the patient survives the initial
>phase,
>> > > some renal tubular damage may occur. Hepatic failure, severe
>> > > coagulopathy, or intravascular hemolysis have been observed." I would
>> > > expect both CrO and CrO3 to be liberated during the forging of metals
>> > > containing chromium.
>> > >
>> > > On zinc: Again from Ellenhorn: "Inhalation of zinc oxide is the most
>> > > common cause of metal fume fever. This syndrome resembles a flulike
>> > > illness. Onset occurs in 4 to 6 hours, generally on the evening after
>> > > exposure to fumes. Fatigue, chills, fever, myalgias, cough, dyspnea,
>> > > leukocytosis, thirst, metallic taste, and salivation characterize this
>> > > self-limited illness, with resolution of symptoms appearing in 36
>hours.
>> > > The chest x-ray usually is clear. Tolerance develops in workers, but
>may
>> > > be lost over the weekend (``Monday Morning Fever''). Metal fume fever
>> > > can also follow exposure to fumes of copper, magnesium, aluminum,
>> > > antimony, iron, manganese, and nickel in welding, galvanizing, or
>> > > smelting operations." Again, I would expect zinc oxide to be liberated
>> > > during the forging of zinc-containing metals.
>> > >
>> > > I would not recommend playing with either of these without (a) a
>> > > breathing mask, preferably one with an independant air supply and (b)
>an
>> > > EXCELLENT ventilation system.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Randy
>> >
>> > _
>>
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