[Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]
Bruce Freeman
[email protected]
Thu Mar 21 11:35:01 2002
Gentlemen (and ladies):
Let me restate the obvious. While hexavalent chromium is highly toxic and =
cancer causing, it is highly unlikely that ANY is formed in a forge. I =
have NOT researched the chemistry in any depth, but chromium trioxide (one =
chemical in which the chromium is hexavalent) is listed in the Merck =
Index, in which it states, "Powerful oxidizer; oxidizes alcohol and most =
other organic substances, sometimes with dangerous violence. Contact with =
combustable material may cause fire." They mean AT ROOM TEMPERATURE.=20
Does this sound like something you're going to get out of a forge? If =
such a chemical formed at all, it would react immediately with the hot =
fuel around it.
Let me elaborate for benefit of the chemistry-impared: Metals exist in =
various oxidation states. The familiar "metal" is oxidation state zero; =
uncharged; nonionic. When "oxidized" by air, acids or other means, the =
metals assume a positive charge =AF ionized. Such ions usually dissolve =
in water, but many of their compounds may not. Some metals will only =
assume one specific oxidiation state. Some will have two or more. In =
different oxidation states the behavior of the metals may be very =
different. Yes, they're the same element, but, for example, carbon (not a =
metallic element, but a familiar example) as its +4 oxide (CO2) you =
exhale, while carbon as its +2 oxide (CO) will kill you. So just because =
there is a carcinogenic form of chromium does NOT mean that chromium is =
dangerous to forge. =20
There may very well be some reason chromium IS dangerous to forge, but =
that's not it.
Furthermore, no one on this list thinks twice about forging stainless =
steel. Yet stainless steel is 10% to 25% chromium! What's the difference =
if the chromium is only on the surface or is mixed into the steel?
Bruce=20
NJ
>>> <[email protected]> 03/21/02 10:07AM >>>
new steel is very cheap. why go thru all the trouble for $1.00?
bob
_________
>Hold on Folks!
> We answered the question, but not the problem. Isn't there =
several
>ways to disassociate chrome plating from steel? Acids or plating
>techniques?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry" <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]
>
>
>> Thanks for all the inputs. Considering I was just looking a a huge =
pile
>of bumpers behind a friends body shop and as I was looking for some steel =
in
>about that thickness to work into guards, the pile looked intriguing. =
None
>the less, I will reconsider and look at some more scrap yards for =
suitable
>stock. Thanks again,
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> Mike Sweany wrote:
>>
>> > When I was suffering from the effects of the weld fume fever or what
>ever you want to call it, and yes I had those syptoms. I was sent by my =
MD
>to a specialist that gave me a colonoscopy, cat scan, etc. The results =
of
>all these tests were inconclusive. Yet I continued to worsen. Oh yes =
heavy
>metal test too, but chrome is not heavy metal. Yes ,blood work too. SO. =
How
>do you test for this? I finally went to a lady that looks in your eye (I
>forget the name of the practise) She put me on vitamins and supplements,
>told me to quit welding and probably saved my life.
>> > Phlip <[email protected]> wrote: OK, guys, this is Randy's response.
>Randy is an MD in internal medicine in
>> > NYC, and is also a teacher at one of the Med Schools there. He knows =
his
>> > stuff ;-)
>> >
>> > Phlip
>> >
>> > Randy Goldberg MD wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don't have the resources to identify specific products of the
>forging
>> > > process. I can tell you that:
>> > >
>> > > Chromic oxide (CrO) is relatively insoluable and can be disregarded.=
>> > > Chromium trioxide (CrO3), however, is very soluable, can easily be
>> > > absorbed through the lungs, and is very very very toxic. From
>> > > Ellenhorn's _Medical Toxicology_: "Ingestion of hexavalent =
compounds
>> > > (including chromium trioxide) usually leads to abdominal pains,
>> > > vomiting, diarrhea, and intestinal bleeding. Death may ensue during
>the
>> > > initial circulatory collapse. If the patient survives the initial
>phase,
>> > > some renal tubular damage may occur. Hepatic failure, severe
>> > > coagulopathy, or intravascular hemolysis have been observed." I =
would
>> > > expect both CrO and CrO3 to be liberated during the forging of =
metals
>> > > containing chromium.
>> > >
>> > > On zinc: Again from Ellenhorn: "Inhalation of zinc oxide is the =
most
>> > > common cause of metal fume fever. This syndrome resembles a flulike
>> > > illness. Onset occurs in 4 to 6 hours, generally on the evening =
after
>> > > exposure to fumes. Fatigue, chills, fever, myalgias, cough, =
dyspnea,
>> > > leukocytosis, thirst, metallic taste, and salivation characterize =
this
>> > > self-limited illness, with resolution of symptoms appearing in 36
>hours.
>> > > The chest x-ray usually is clear. Tolerance develops in workers, =
but
>may
>> > > be lost over the weekend (``Monday Morning Fever''). Metal fume =
fever
>> > > can also follow exposure to fumes of copper, magnesium, aluminum,
>> > > antimony, iron, manganese, and nickel in welding, galvanizing, or
>> > > smelting operations." Again, I would expect zinc oxide to be =
liberated
>> > > during the forging of zinc-containing metals.
>> > >
>> > > I would not recommend playing with either of these without (a) a
>> > > breathing mask, preferably one with an independant air supply and =
(b)
>an
>> > > EXCELLENT ventilation system.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Randy
>> >
>> > _
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge=20
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com=20
>> Login: [email protected]=20
>> password: anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge=20
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com=20
>Login: [email protected]=20
>password: anvil
>___________
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge=20
theforge mail list group photo site is
http://www.photoaccess.com=20
Login: [email protected]=20
password: anvil
___________