[Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]

Thu Mar 21 13:42:00 2002

Well.......
Not to confuse the issue much further, but......
Most all the chrome plated articles I've seen use more than one layer of
different metals to allow the chrome to bond to the steel. I know they use
copper at the very least but I believe others also.
Now copper may not be as dangerous as chrome (perhaps?) but it can cause
other problems in forging.
IE: the anti-welding prank of legend.
But one thing to also keep in mind is that there are a lot of things out
there that are nickel plated and I KNOW that nickel poisoning is a huge
problem in the plating business.
If the stories are true I'd be more concerned with nickel poisoning than
chrome.
But even then why take the risk?
Just find a railroad and look for stuff on the side of the tracks.

Jim Jordan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Sweany <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]

>
>  wouldn't an .0001 whatever thickness plateing, vaporize slightly faster
than chrome content in the steel?
>   Bruce Freeman <[email protected]> wrote: Gentlemen (and ladies):
>
> Let me restate the obvious. While hexavalent chromium is highly toxic and
cancer causing, it is highly unlikely that ANY is formed in a forge. I have
NOT researched the chemistry in any depth, but chromium trioxide (one
chemical in which the chromium is hexavalent) is listed in the Merck Index,
in which it states, "Powerful oxidizer; oxidizes alcohol and most other
organic substances, sometimes with dangerous violence. Contact with
combustable material may cause fire." They mean AT ROOM TEMPERATURE.
>
> Does this sound like something you're going to get out of a forge? If such
a chemical formed at all, it would react immediately with the hot fuel
around it.
>
> Let me elaborate for benefit of the chemistry-impared: Metals exist in
various oxidation states. The familiar "metal" is oxidation state zero;
uncharged; nonionic. When "oxidized" by air, acids or other means, the
metals assume a positive charge � ionized. Such ions usually dissolve in
water, but many of their compounds may not. Some metals will only assume one
specific oxidiation state. Some will have two or more. In different
oxidation states the behavior of the metals may be very different. Yes,
they're the same element, but, for example, carbon (not a metallic element,
but a familiar example) as its +4 oxide (CO2) you exhale, while carbon as
its +2 oxide (CO) will kill you. So just because there is a carcinogenic
form of chromium does NOT mean that chromium is dangerous to forge.
>
> There may very well be some reason chromium IS dangerous to forge, but
that's not it.
>
> Furthermore, no one on this list thinks twice about forging stainless
steel. Yet stainless steel is 10% to 25% chromium! What's the difference if
the chromium is only on the surface or is mixed into the steel?
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
>
> >>> 03/21/02 10:07AM >>>
> new steel is very cheap. why go thru all the trouble for $1.00?
>
> bob
> _________
>
>
> >Hold on Folks!
> > We answered the question, but not the problem. Isn't there several
> >ways to disassociate chrome plating from steel? Acids or plating
> >techniques?
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Larry"
> >To:
> >Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:51 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Fwd: [TheForge] Forging of Chrome plated steel]
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for all the inputs. Considering I was just looking a a huge pile
> >of bumpers behind a friends body shop and as I was looking for some steel
in
> >about that thickness to work into guards, the pile looked intriguing.
None
> >the less, I will reconsider and look at some more scrap yards for
suitable
> >stock. Thanks again,
> >>
> >> Larry
> >>
> >> Mike Sweany wrote:
> >>
> >> > When I was suffering from the effects of the weld fume fever or what
> >ever you want to call it, and yes I had those syptoms. I was sent by my
MD
> >to a specialist that gave me a colonoscopy, cat scan, etc. The results of
> >all these tests were inconclusive. Yet I continued to worsen. Oh yes
heavy
> >metal test too, but chrome is not heavy metal. Yes ,blood work too. SO.
How
> >do you test for this? I finally went to a lady that looks in your eye (I
> >forget the name of the practise) She put me on vitamins and supplements,
> >told me to quit welding and probably saved my life.
> >> > Phlip
> wrote: OK, guys, this is Randy's response.
> >Randy is an MD in internal medicine in
> >> > NYC, and is also a teacher at one of the Med Schools there. He knows
his
> >> > stuff ;-)
> >> >
> >> > Phlip
> >> >
> >> > Randy Goldberg MD wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I don't have the resources to identify specific products of the
> >forging
> >> > > process. I can tell you that:
> >> > >
> >> > > Chromic oxide (CrO) is relatively insoluable and can be
disregarded.
> >> > > Chromium trioxide (CrO3), however, is very soluable, can easily be
> >> > > absorbed through the lungs, and is very very very toxic. From
> >> > > Ellenhorn's _Medical Toxicology_: "Ingestion of hexavalent
compounds
> >> > > (including chromium trioxide) usually leads to abdominal pains,
> >> > > vomiting, diarrhea, and intestinal bleeding. Death may ensue during
> >the
> >> > > initial circulatory collapse. If the patient survives the initial
> >phase,
> >> > > some renal tubular damage may occur. Hepatic failure, severe
> >> > > coagulopathy, or intravascular hemolysis have been observed." I
would
> >> > > expect both CrO and CrO3 to be liberated during the forging of
metals
> >> > > containing chromium.
> >> > >
> >> > > On zinc: Again from Ellenhorn: "Inhalation of zinc oxide is the
most
> >> > > common cause of metal fume fever. This syndrome resembles a flulike
> >> > > illness. Onset occurs in 4 to 6 hours, generally on the evening
after
> >> > > exposure to fumes. Fatigue, chills, fever, myalgias, cough,
dyspnea,
> >> > > leukocytosis, thirst, metallic taste, and salivation characterize
this
> >> > > self-limited illness, with resolution of symptoms appearing in 36
> >hours.
> >> > > The chest x-ray usually is clear. Tolerance develops in workers,
but
> >may
> >> > > be lost over the weekend (``Monday Morning Fever''). Metal fume
fever
> >> > > can also follow exposure to fumes of copper, magnesium, aluminum,
> >> > > antimony, iron, manganese, and nickel in welding, galvanizing, or
> >> > > smelting operations." Again, I would expect zinc oxide to be
liberated
> >> > > during the forging of zinc-containing metals.
> >> > >
> >> > > I would not recommend playing with either of these without (a) a
> >> > > breathing mask, preferably one with an independant air supply and
(b)
> >an
> >> > > EXCELLENT ventilation system.
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers,
> >> > > Randy
> >> >
> >> > _
> >>
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