[TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer

Sat Dec 7 18:29:02 2002

Darrell,
I agree that it is not necessary to be too fussy. The minor leak would be no
real concern.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer


> I machined the bore in the valve body with a CNC mill. Then I turned the
> valve on a lathe. The body was aluminum and the valve was steel. I turned
> the valve to a slip fit. I didn't do any honing or lapping. With a little
> oil on the valve and the end plates in place, the air leak was just
> detectable. Not enough to bother anything. There is a lot of area to slow
> any air leak.
>
> Darrell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shannell Sugrue" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 4:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
>
>
> >
> > But I didnt read your message properly because you did use honing in
this
> > case! :) sorry I didnt read more carefully
> > I wouldve thought lapping with the parts themselves would have giving a
> more
> > perfect fit?
> >
> >
> > > That is really honeing, I dont think it could be used in this case,
> > lapping
> > > is more about using the parts involved to make a perfect fit using a
> fine
> > > abrasiive compound and moving the parts over one another.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Smolen" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: 06 December, 2002 7:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > >
> > >
> > > > Steve,
> > > > I am not an expert at lapping, but a brake cylinder lap can be used.
> You
> > > can
> > > > buy them for around 15.00 at auto parts store. They have three
prongs
> > > which
> > > > have a small stone at the end. As the lap spins, the prongs spread
> > outward
> > > > to force the stones against the surface being honed..Chuck the lap
in
> a
> > > > drill and get at it. I did this to smooth the surface of the bored
> hole
> > > thru
> > > > which the spools rotate.
> > > > I also cobbled a lap by drilling a hole in the long axis of a scrap
> > round
> > > > that was near the size of the valve hole. I made some cuts
lengthwise
> at
> > > the
> > > > bottom end of the round. I wrapped sand paper around the round and
> drove
> > a
> > > > tapered rod into the hole I drilled so it would cause a little
> expansion
> > > > after it was inserted in the hole. I turned a small diameter on the
> > other
> > > > end of the round so it would fit in the drill chuck. I probably
could
> > have
> > > > gotten by with this lap , but the brake cyl. lap was easy to use.
> > > > Bob
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Steve Smith" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > No plans, just his booklet on how Nazel's work with a few pages on
> his
> > > > > prototype.
> > > > >
> > > > > It looks like spool valves might work; if not, I'm going to have
to
> > > > > figure out lapping.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > lama wrote:
> > > > > > Steve, I don't know about yardsticks, but I don't think that one
> > > > > > can compare Kinyons & Nazels. It's like apples & oranges.
> > > > > > I would love to have a Nazel,,,, and if I could find one in
> > > > > > working order for $1,000 I would grab it. I guess that the
bottom
> > > > > > line here is that we are talking about folks building their own
> air
> > > > hammers.
> > > > > > The Nazel is not a homemade hammer, the Krause & Kinyon are.
> > > > > > Kinyon = (no machining necessary) (you need a compressor)
> > > > > > Krause = (advanced machining skills required) (you need a lathe
> > etc.)
> > > > > > Now if Krause would offer the plans AND sell "the valve", I'll
bet
> > > that
> > > > > > he would have a lot of business. I know that I would seriously
> > > consider
> > > > > > using that system on my big hammer, but I don't have any
machining
> > > > > > skills and I don't have a lathe.  I still haven't found out if
> there
> > > are
> > > > > > published plans available. Where? how much?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dave m
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Steve Smith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:46 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>It sounds like my Kinyon comments are being taken as critical of
> the
> > > > > >>design. That was not at all my intention. I realize the hammer
can
> > do
> > > > > >>lots of useful work, and certainly respect Kinyon's
contribution.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>The way I think about the difference between the hammers (please
> add
> > > or
> > > > > >>subtract as you folks see it) is as follows:
> > > > > >>A Kinyon is like moving a ball bearing with a yardstick. The
> bearing
> > > > > >>moves just fine, but when you try to reverse it, it takes a bit
to
> > > > > >>regain control.
> > > > > >>A Nazel is like moving a ball bearing with two yardsticks, one
on
> > each
> > > > > >>side. You can put it right where you want it.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>The ball bearing is the hammer head, of course, yardsticks are
> air.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Hey, please keep up this discussion; I'll be out of town until
> > > Thursday.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Steve
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>lama wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>air through the spool valve to the top of the cylinder, forcing
> it
> > > > down.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > A
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>little
> > > > > >>>exhaust causes a little movement of the cylinder (ram, head,
top
> > die)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > and a
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>light tap. A heavy foot on the exhaust valve (treadle) causes a
> > heavy
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > blow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>This hammer hits a lot harder than my 50# Little Giant ever
did.
> > The
> > > > > >>>downward
> > > > > >>>movement of the ram activates a pilot switch. The pilot switch
> > tells
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>spool
> > > > > >>>valve to rout the air to the bottom side of the cylinder, thus
> > > forcing
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>cylinder
> > > > > >>>upward and activating the pilot switch once again which tells
the
> > > spool
> > > > > >>>valve to
> > > > > >>>rout the air to the top of the cylinder, thus forcing the
> downward
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > stroke
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>and
> > > > > >>>the cycle keeps repeating. The Kinyon hammer does not have the
> > > ability
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > to
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>clamp & hold a piece of work. Bob Bergman's "KA-75" can do that
> > quite
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > well
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>as will the "Blue" but @ $4,000, they are out of my price
range.
> > The
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > Kinyon
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>is
> > > > > >>>not a Nazel or a Chambersburg or any of the Chinese / Turkish
> Nazel
> > > > > >>>knock-offs.
> > > > > >>>They cost $8k - $30k and are way out of my price range. The
> Kinyon
> > > cost
> > > > > >>>about $1,000 or less depending on your local scrap yard. The
> bottom
> > > > line
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > is
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>that
> > > > > >>>the Kinyon design works quite well and there are lots of them
> > around.
> > > I
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > can
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>think
> > > > > >>>of 7 Kinyons in a 100 mile radius.
> > > > > >>>I am not down on the Krause hammer at all. In fact I think that
> > it's
> > > > > >>>probably a
> > > > > >>>great idea. I would love to see plans because there is still
time
> > to
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > make my
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>big
> > > > > >>>hammer in that manner.
> > > > > >>>dave m
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >>>From: "Steve Smith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > >>>To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > >>>Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 6:15 PM
> > > > > >>>Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>Well, I'd like something larger than my current 25 pound LG.
> This
> > > gets
> > > > > >>>>into a 5-7.5HP compressor pretty quickly from what I hear.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>I don't mean to bad mouth the Kinyon design; from what I
> > understand
> > > > (I'm
> > > > > >>>>hoping Dave M. will jump in and improve me), Kinyon's push on
> one
> > > side
> > > > > >>>>of the piston, then push on the other side. You can do a lot
of
> > work
> > > > on
> > > > > >>>>this style hammer, but it doesn't seem like you have a lot of
> > > control
> > > > of
> > > > > >>>>the ram position.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>Steve
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
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> > > > > >
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