[Spooks] New question on NS

Al Fansome al_fansome at hotmail.com
Mon Mar 17 19:10:54 EDT 2014 

My understanding is that five-letter groups are used to hide individual word lengths; five letters is the average length of an English word. If the words were encrypted as-is, the lengths would be a clue as to the content of the message. Instead, they are encrypted, concatenated, and then broadcast five letters at a time, which eliminates that clue.

> From: spooks-request at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Spooks Digest, Vol 122, Issue 3
> To: spooks at mailman.qth.net
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:09:01 -0400
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. New question on NS (Gian Romani)
>    2. Re: New question on NS (Todd Dokey)
>    3. Re: New question on NS (Gian Romani)
>    4. Re: New question on NS (Todd Dokey)
>    5. Re: New question on NS (Charles Bennett)
>    6. Re: New question on NS (Todd Dokey)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:39:10 +0100
> From: Gian Romani <romanigian at gmail.com>
> To: Shortwave Spy Numbers Stations <spooks at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Spooks] New question on NS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAP5QLVSkSjFr4Cwzuhq0AEwQ3z+G0Y2M-fiBfU0tSXBKHFYj_Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Hi everybody, this is my new question: a lot of trasmissions have similar
> structure. Why the whole message is generally divided in 5 letters (or 5
> numbers) groups? Or sometimes 4 letters/numbers? Is it just for practical
> reasons, because 5 letters or 5 numbers are the ideal format to listen to
> and write? Maybe longer structures affects readability and cause
> transcription errors due to misunderstanding and lack of concentration? Are
> there other reasons? Since most messages have same structures it means that
> to be prepared (i.e. to encrypt the clear text) is used the same method:
> why? Why don't eachone use a different method? To encrypt these messages I
> think a software is used: after all this time and all those messages sent
> and received, does some information about that has ever came out? Does
> anyone has info or suspects for that? Is there any software useful to try
> to decrypt this structure?
> thank you, bye
> Naig
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 10:51:33 -0800
> From: Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>
> To: Shortwave Spy Numbers Stations <spooks at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spooks] New question on NS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHJ7VPfKNMyudjqH7Jd+B_9Gu9G60hTsyTZWoaPXMJh=vYCSog at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Dividing numbers into 4 or 5 number groups is done for the same reason
> phone numbers get split up into groups -so you can remember the
> string.
> 
> Its a cognitive science thing.
> 
> -- 
> Semper Reluctor
> 
> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 22:17:29 +0100
> From: Gian Romani <romanigian at gmail.com>
> To: Shortwave Spy Numbers Stations <spooks at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spooks] New question on NS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAP5QLVSm_c27-z2f6BJv6WsP1m0BHif1zTn_fubW9TGbP5QH=Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Thank you Todd!
> ciao
> 
> 
> 2014-03-17 19:51 GMT+01:00 Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>:
> 
>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>> this list
>>
>> Dividing numbers into 4 or 5 number groups is done for the same reason
>> phone numbers get split up into groups -so you can remember the
>> string.
>>
>> Its a cognitive science thing.
>>
>> --
>> Semper Reluctor
>>
>> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Spooks mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:51:55 -0800
> From: Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>
> To: Shortwave Spy Numbers Stations <spooks at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spooks] New question on NS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHJ7VPeiZp8yPDtMe=ndk_SkaYF6nmRawqyR4vcska6_BqX2hQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> There is actually some research on splitting phone numbers. I forget
> if Shannon was involved in that when he was doing information theory
> for Bell Labs or not.
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/17/14, Gian Romani <romanigian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>> this list
>>
>> Thank you Todd!
>> ciao
>>
>>
>> 2014-03-17 19:51 GMT+01:00 Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>>> this list
>>>
>>> Dividing numbers into 4 or 5 number groups is done for the same reason
>>> phone numbers get split up into groups -so you can remember the
>>> string.
>>>
>>> Its a cognitive science thing.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Semper Reluctor
>>>
>>> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Spooks mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Spooks mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Semper Reluctor
> 
> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:06:16 -0400
> From: Charles Bennett <bennettc at me.com>
> To: Shortwave Spy Numbers Stations <spooks at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spooks] New question on NS
> Message-ID: <58AE8771-DC1E-43B6-80F0-1B290844BFA7 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> 
> I've been lurking on the list for awhile but haven't really had anything to contribute.
> 
> In the mid 70s I was, occasionally, what you guys refer to as a numbers station.    Not the kind that operates for months or years but the kind that pops up, runs for a week or two, and then stops.   I was working with 10th special forces in bad toelz Germany sending encrypted messages to teams In the field.  5 letter code groups, broadcast at particular times.   Sometimes it would be the same transmission for a day, sometimes it would change often.   I was at a remote station with a secure teletype and the messages would arrive pre encrypted so I did not know the contents.  I would then rebroadcast them in morse.
> 
> Sometimes I would work the receiving end using high speed tape recorders.   The teams would send encoded messages using a gra~71 encoder so even though it was morse code it was sent as a very high speed burst.   We would record that then slow the tapes way down on playback and create hard copies of the messages.   Again we never saw the unencrypted messages when we were receiving, just the 5 letter code groups.
> 
> Just that you all might like that bit of trivia.
> 
> Best
> 
> Chuck
> WB8CEE
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Mar 17, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Gian Romani <romanigian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from this list
>> 
>> Thank you Todd!
>> ciao
>> 
>> 
>> 2014-03-17 19:51 GMT+01:00 Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>:
>> 
>>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>>> this list
>>> 
>>> Dividing numbers into 4 or 5 number groups is done for the same reason
>>> phone numbers get split up into groups -so you can remember the
>>> string.
>>> 
>>> Its a cognitive science thing.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Semper Reluctor
>>> 
>>> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Spooks mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Spooks mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:08:56 -0800
> From: Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>
> To: Shortwave Spy Numbers Stations <spooks at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spooks] New question on NS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHJ7VPcip=TO6bZ4a69tyW+=d5dr+QwLkLfhxWtV+GvD75X5CA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Yup,
> 
> I have some of the old surplus manuals on that procedure somewhere..
> 
> But when I obtained them, I wasn't  about to publish on SPECWAR guys..
> they get kinda fussy about that.. ;)
> 
> 
> On 3/17/14, Charles Bennett <bennettc at me.com> wrote:
>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>> this list
>>
>> I've been lurking on the list for awhile but haven't really had anything to
>> contribute.
>>
>> In the mid 70s I was, occasionally, what you guys refer to as a numbers
>> station.    Not the kind that operates for months or years but the kind that
>> pops up, runs for a week or two, and then stops.   I was working with 10th
>> special forces in bad toelz Germany sending encrypted messages to teams In
>> the field.  5 letter code groups, broadcast at particular times.   Sometimes
>> it would be the same transmission for a day, sometimes it would change
>> often.   I was at a remote station with a secure teletype and the messages
>> would arrive pre encrypted so I did not know the contents.  I would then
>> rebroadcast them in morse.
>>
>> Sometimes I would work the receiving end using high speed tape recorders.
>> The teams would send encoded messages using a gra~71 encoder so even though
>> it was morse code it was sent as a very high speed burst.   We would record
>> that then slow the tapes way down on playback and create hard copies of the
>> messages.   Again we never saw the unencrypted messages when we were
>> receiving, just the 5 letter code groups.
>>
>> Just that you all might like that bit of trivia.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Chuck
>> WB8CEE
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 17, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Gian Romani <romanigian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>>> this list
>>>
>>> Thank you Todd!
>>> ciao
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-03-17 19:51 GMT+01:00 Todd Dokey <justcallmebuddy at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Visit http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks to unsubscribe from
>>>> this list
>>>>
>>>> Dividing numbers into 4 or 5 number groups is done for the same reason
>>>> phone numbers get split up into groups -so you can remember the
>>>> string.
>>>>
>>>> Its a cognitive science thing.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Semper Reluctor
>>>>
>>>> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Spooks mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Spooks mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Spooks mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/spooks
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Spooks at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Semper Reluctor
> 
> "Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice."
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> Spooks mailing list
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> -
> Visit http://www.spynumbers.com/ for complete information about Spy Numbers Stations
> 
> 
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