[ARC5] A-10 Radios

Fri Jul 13 18:01:21 EDT 2018

Might be nice if you guys would change the thread name, since it’s been about 400 messages since anyone said anything about A-10 radio installations.

Regards,

Scott V. Johnson W7SVJ

5111 E. Sharon Dr.

Scottsdale, AZ 85254-3636

H (602) 953-5779

C (480) 550-2358

 <mailto:scottjohnson1 at cox.net> scottjohnson1 at cox.net

 <mailto:scott.johnson at ieee.org> scott.johnson at ieee.org

From: arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net <arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of Tim
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 2:48 PM
To: Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
Cc: ARC-5 List <arc5 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [ARC5] A-10 Radios

Yep,, The Russians got pretty good at spoofing Nav signals on the air corridor leading into post-war Berlin.  The more modern term for spoofing Nav signals is Meaconing.  When detected, you filed a MIJI report to higher...

Tim

N6CC

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org <mailto:kb8tq at n1k.org> > wrote:

Hi

Well, yes and no. If you have noise jamming, the system simply shuts down on this or that part of the band. Most jamming you 
hear about is narrowband in nature and far from “random” noise. If you set up a big enough / powerful enough noise source to 
effectively jam something like an A-10 that is moving at speed, you *will* be noticed. You also will be something that is fairly
easy to home in on and … errr … apply 30 mm rounds to.  

The bigger problem is spoofing. There the bad guy tries to fool you into believing that his signal is the real nav signal. Loran along
with any number of military radio nav systems is / was susceptible to this sort of thing. There were a lot of incidents in during the 
Cold War related to nav being spoofed and aircraft wandering over borders as a result. All of this *long* before GPS (or any other 
satellite based system) came into use.

Spoofing a multiband / multi system nav system that has some smarts built in - not at all easy.

Bob

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Brooke Clarke <brooke at pacific.net <mailto:brooke at pacific.net> > wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> 
> The problem is that all these sat nav systems work in what used to be called L-band (1 - 2 GHz) and it's pretty easy to make a receiver deaf by noise jamming with low power. and an antenna that's a few inches in size.  The mil receivers know they are being jammed and roughly the bearing where it's coming from, but they still are jammed.
> 
> LORAN-C, operating at 100 kHz and with the eLORAN updates would be close to GPS in capability and is virtually jam proof.  The transmitters are running hundreds of megawatts into a 1000+ foot antenna.  Hard to generate a signal at the receiver that can compete with that received power.
> 
> -- 
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> axioms:
> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
>> Hi
>> 
>> Glonass ( the “Russian GPS”) has been running for almost 20 years now. The latest modernization phase started roughly
>> 10 years back. It has been fully functional for quite a while. The European Galileo is still in the “get enough sats up there”
>> phase. What they have up works ( with a few failures of various sub-systems causing the backups to come on line). The
>> Chinese system is a bit further back than that. The Japanese system is up and running with coverage only in a limited area
>> (by design). The Indian government is still making noises about doing their own system. We’ll see how that all works out.
>> 
>> Without much effort you can get $10 GPS / Glonass receivers on eBay (USB sticks). They will happily give you a nav solution
>> based on either system or on both at once. Many also will do the Chinese and Japanese systems in the part of the world where
>> there is coverage. Finding cheap stuff that tosses Galileo into the mix is a bit harder. You probably will have to spend $20 to $30.
>> 
>> If you have the money, you can get multi band (L1/L2/L5) deuces that will work with the big three ( GPS, Galileo, Glonass). That’s
>> been true for about 5 years. Why you would pay for the European system when it’s not fully deployed .. hmmm…. ( = that add-on
>> may cost about $7,000 alone). If you want to really make it tough on a bad guy, run multi band / multi system. It just costs a
>> (gulp ..) little more.
>> 
>> So no, we are not living in a world with only one sat nav system.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jul 12, 2018, at 9:19 PM, Peter Gottlieb <kb2vtl at gmail.com <mailto:kb2vtl at gmail.com> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> At this point it seems the govt believes that science and reason are not to be trusted so all decisions must be opposite what the subject matter experts say.  So I have close to zero faith they will do the right thing.
>>> 
>>> Is the Russian Glonast system up and running yet?  Is that more robust?  I would think that relying on multiple independent satnav systems would improve the odds that jamming would be detected, etc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7/12/2018 8:13 PM, Robert Downs via ARC5 wrote:
>>>> So does everyone else with good sense.  Which doesn't mean it won't be done
>>>> that way.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert Downs
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net>  [mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of Kenneth G. Gordon
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 17:38
>>>> To: Francesco Ledda
>>>> Cc: 'To: ARC-5'
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARC5] A-10 Radios
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Personally, I think it is a big mistake to put all our navigation eggs in
>>>> one basket.
>>>> 
>>>> Ken W7EKB
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>> 
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