[Alexandria Radio Club Reflector] Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a battery cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?
Rick
n4asx at cox.net
Fri May 28 18:31:48 EDT 2021
A hole in the water to which you poor money. Not at all like aircraft.....
-----Original Message-----
From: alexandriaradioclub-bounces at mailman.qth.net <alexandriaradioclub-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of Ian
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 6:08 PM
To: Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com>
Cc: W4HFH <alexandriaradioclub at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Alexandria Radio Club Reflector] Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a battery cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?
BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand
On Fri, May 28, 2021, 17:56 Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com> wrote:
> Thank you so much, Doug and Ian.
>
> I couldn’t ask for better advice.
>
>
> I *thought* that the heat-shrink crimps with a ratcheting crimper was
> the way to go, but based on the feedback from you too, I’m now
> convinced that soldering and using the techniques described by Doug
> are definitely the way to go.
>
> I’m glad to hear the warning about welding cable… it makes sense. I’ll
> only use tinned copper cables, especially given this information.
>
> I was already looking at a long install. Now if I solder everything,
> it’ll take that much longer.
>
> Hmm… I’ll have to think on this one long and hard. Maybe my solution
> will be to solder the most critical circuits, like those related to
> starting the engine and keeping it running, and crimp the others… at least
> for now. It’s not that I don’t believe you… i really *do*…. it’s just
> that I’ve cued up soooo many projects for myself, and I’d like to get
> in some boating time too… so I might split the difference by soldering
> the most important connections, crimping with heat shrink the less
> important ones, and leaving some extra wire on each of the crimped
> connections so that I can easily clip them off, and redo them with solder in the future.
>
> Regarding the wire size, I’d definitely considering 4 AWG or 2 AWG, but
> nothing larger. Between the boat that I bought last year, and all of the
> money that I’ve already spend re-fitting her, I’ve got to mind my budget,
> otherwise my wife might put me out and *make* we sleep on Fish Beware.
>
> Here’s a photo of Fish Beware. As I do more work, I’ll take more. I
> also plan to make a “build thread” on a wellcraft V20 speciality site.
>
> I’ll post back here with the link once I get some photos up.
>
> Thanks so much for your expertise. I *am* listening and learning, and I
> really appreciate it!
>
> Sincerley,
> -Philip
>
> On May 28, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Ian <iann8ik at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The voice of experience speaks! Yes, I also crimp, but then solder.
> In the marine world, crimping makes it ABYC-compliant but soldering
> guarantees the connection.
> 73, Ian N8IK
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:29 PM dougmrose <dougmrose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Phil,
>> You have tapped into a world of expertise, but as a lifetime boat
>> owner in Florida, the graveyard of wiring, perhaps I can add a few thoughts.
>>
>> First, forget crimping. It is useless around salt water. There are
>> two
>> problems: First, unless done expertly, crimping damages the wire at
>> the point where it exits the crimp, and even if it is reinforced by
>> shrink tubing, it often separates there. Second, no matter what you
>> put over the crimp, it is not gastight and the connection will
>> corrode. Particularly bad are the crimp eyes with a permanent
>> plastic cover. The tool cannot crimp well through the plastic and
>> the crimp is not tight. Remember, the plastic or shrink cover is
>> there to provide a color code, it does not aid the connection.
>>
>> Solder everything. I solder small wires (AWG 10 and smaller) by
>> using solder terminals and lightly crimping them onto the wire (so it
>> doesn't fall off) and dipping them into a solder pot, up to the wire
>> insulation. A small gap between terminal and wire insulation allows
>> inspection of the joint. The same gap ensures that the shrink tubing
>> doesn't slide off, since it shrinks more at the gap, and won't move.
>> Solder flows up the strands of the wire and reinforces it until well up under the insulation.
>> I like to use clear shrink tubing, which lets me wrap the terminal
>> joint with tape of the correct color, and then shrink over it all with clear.
>> The solder, however, is all that is required to ensure a working joint.
>>
>> It is not clear to me whether you are planning to use 4 AWG or 4/0,
>> which is quite a bit larger. I used 4/0 on my boat, because it was
>> going to start Perkins 6-354 diesels, but I assume 4 AWG would start
>> a smaller gas engine nicely. It is easy to solder this stuff using solder terminals.
>> Strip the wire and push it into the terminal along with some paste flux.
>> Heat with a propane torch, heating the terminal but staying away from
>> the wire. Feed the solder between the bare wire and the terminal,
>> and heat until you are melting the solder on the wire itself. Many
>> solder terminals have a small inspection hole at the eye end, and
>> that will tell you when you are done. Remember, solder is drawn
>> toward the heat, don't solder just at the inspection hole.
>>
>> After the flux residue is removed, use liquid tape or real electrical
>> tape to seal the gap between terminal and wire, and then color code
>> and apply the shrink. Heavy wires on boats are often made from
>> small stuff, to retain flexibility. I have seen welding cable used.
>> This gives you a huge surface area of copper and any salt intrusion is death.
>>
>> Finally, crimp technology is expensive. Terminals and wire must be a
>> good match, and they charge accordingly. The tools are very costly.
>> All to save a little time in production. Solder terminals are cheap,
>> the solder will take up any slack, and the connections are solid
>> metal. In short, crimp is for companies. Solder is for those of us
>> doing small jobs, like a single boat.
>>
>> Just for the record, my cabin cruiser went over 20 years in Florida
>> with no problems. My friend Rick Goltz circumnavigated without
>> electrical problems. He took my advice and soldered everything.
>> And, finally, in my career launching rockets, we found that after the
>> bird had been on the pad for six or eight weeks, it would start to
>> get wiring failures caused by bad crimps. And you cannot compete
>> with the boys in California, their top notch equipment, layers of quality control, and their dry climate.
>>
>> Sorry to be so long winded. But contact me if you have any questions
>> or need anything.
>>
>> Doug Rose
>> AK4QY
>>
>> By the way, the little round photo is me at the helm of a Chris Craft
>> cabin cruiser. It was 1950. I was five.
>>
>> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 7:12 AM Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Great!
>>>
>>> I’m still working in my wiring plan (draft attached), including
>>> figuring out what size wire to use for different runs.
>>> While I don’t want to undersize anything, I’ll have to make the
>>> classic tradeoff between size and cost.
>>>
>>> All wiring will be tinned aluminum.
>>>
>>> Also, I’ve found a company www.batterycablesusa.com <
>>> http://www.batterycablesusa.com/>, that has very competitive prices
>>> for wires, and for a little less than $2 per connection they will
>>> crimp on a lug of your choice and heat shrink it…. so I’m looking at
>>> plans and budgets, but I’m tempted to let the pros do the crimping
>>> and heating since they likely have hydraulic crimpers and other
>>> professional grade tools.
>>>
>>> Thank you Jack W4JJ.
>>>
>>> I will reach out to you and/or Don if I end up crimping my own cables.
>>> (Don has some tools too).
>>>
>>> A preview of my plans are attached, but they are still a work in
>>> progress, and once I’m done I’ll probably ask for some input from
>>> the more experiences hams.
>>>
>>> I’m rewiring the whole boat, including moving the battery forward
>>> from the stern to under the passenger seat much closer to the bow,
>>> and also adding a 2nd battery and an automatic charge relay that
>>> keeps the batteries isolated except when the one of them is being
>>> charged, then the unit connects them in parallel so that both batteries charge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> -Philip, W3PJB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On May 27, 2021, at 5:01 PM, W4JJ <jackparker at w4jj.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Yes, I have one that should work.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >
>>> >> On May 27, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Ian <iann8ik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Anyone have a crimping tool to handle 4ga battery cable?
>>> >> 73, Ian N8IK
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> >> From: Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com>
>>> >> Date: Wed, May 26, 2021 at 9:22 PM
>>> >> Subject: Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a
>>> battery
>>> >> cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?
>>> >> To: Ian Keith <n8ik at arrl.net>, Don (KI4D) <don.ki4d at gmail.com>
>>> >> Cc: Philip J Brown III <phil at pjb3.com>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello Ian,
>>> >>
>>> >> (Don, I’m CC’ing as an FYI… since you’re clearly interested in
>>> everything
>>> >> RF ! :-) )
>>> >>
>>> >> Do you know if anyone in the club has a battery cable crimper
>>> >> that I
>>> can
>>> >> borrow?
>>> >> Is there any way that you could pose the question to the membership?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I’m planning to run some 4 Gauge tinned copper wires in both the
>>> >> boat
>>> and
>>> >> the 4Runner, and once I crimp and heat-shrink the cables I’d have
>>> >> no use for a crimper or a cable cutter of that size… not to
>>> >> mention that this project is starting to get **expensive** !!
>>> >> :-)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Here’s the update on my plans for an RF ground for the boat, and
>>> >> also
>>> for
>>> >> my 4Runner.
>>> >>
>>> >> *Any feedback from you, Don or an Elmer would be warmly welcomed.
>>> :-)*
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I found a part on craig’s list for $45 and bought it today — New
>>> >> old stock…. basically someone bought it and never used.
>>> >> Westmarine sells the same part new for $109. The manufacturer
>>> claims it
>>> >> has the same effect as 12 sqft of copper foil.
>>> >>
>>> >> It’s cool. It’s extremely pourous bronze that is specially
>>> >> bonded
>>> together
>>> >> to act as an electrical and RF ground. You bolt it to the bottom
>>> >> of your boat, and connect the ground wire to a gold plated bolt
>>> >> using
>>> gold
>>> >> plated nuts that are provided.
>>> >>
>>> >> It also protects the boat from lightning strikes by offering a
>>> high-current
>>> >> path to ground.
>>> >> It has some type of silver conductive paste that’s dried out in
>>> >> the
>>> box for
>>> >> my unit… I could probably use a small amount if anyone has a tube
>>> >> of
>>> that
>>> >> as well.
>>> >>
>>> >> The guy who I bought mine from said that his boat had a lighting
>>> strike
>>> >> while at the dock, and while it destroyed his dynaplate and fried
>>> >> his electronics, it didn’t blow-out his through-hull transducer,
>>> >> which he said is a
>>> common
>>> >> problem that leaves a hole in the hull that sinks many boats.
>>> >>
>>> >> This is pretty cool, and all new to me, but I find it exciting!
>>> >>
>>> >> I’m planning to use one of these
>>> >> as my “common RF ground” point for the boat, and another one for
>>> >> the 4Runner.
>>> >> I’m planning to run a 4 gauge copper tinned cable from this
>>> >> ground
>>> to the
>>> >> dynaplate on the boat, and to the vehicles body near the battery
>>> ground
>>> >> on the 4Runner.
>>> >>
>>> >> From Westmarine:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. Marine Electronics
>>> >> <https://www.westmarine.com/marine-electronics>
>>> /
>>> >> 2. Marine Communication <
>>> https://www.westmarine.com/marine-communication>
>>> >> /
>>> >> 3. VHF Accessories <https://www.westmarine.com/vhf-accessories>
>>> >> / 4. Grounding <https://www.westmarine.com/grounding>
>>> >>
>>> >> [image: Dynaplate, Bonding Use]larged view of picture, opens
>>> dialimages
>>> >> carousel, showing slide 1 of 1
>>> >> GUEST <https://www.westmarine.com/guest>–Dynaplate, Bonding Use
>>> >> 0 stars, 0 reviews, skips to reviews
>>> >> $109.99
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Model # 377010 | Mfg # 4008
>>> >> SpecsDynaplate, Bonding Use
>>> >> NameValue
>>> >> Type Ground Plates
>>> >> Product Overview
>>> >>
>>> >> Bronze grounding plates replace yards of copper foil. Looks like
>>> >> a
>>> solid
>>> >> bronze plate, but actually a porous matrix of bronze spheres,
>>> presenting
>>> >> the same effective electrical surface as a much larger expanse of
>>> copper
>>> >> foil. Use as electronic ground for SSBs, Lorans and ham
>>> >> transceivers,
>>> or as
>>> >> a ground reference in bonding systems. Includes gold-plated
>>> >> bronze
>>> flathead
>>> >> fasteners and silver contact paste for superior conductivity.
>>> >> Plates
>>> have
>>> >> tapered ends and rounded edges for reduced turbulence.
>>> >>
>>> >> Standard Dynaplate
>>> >> Part No. 4006
>>> >> Dimensions: 6.0"W x 2.0" H x 0.50" D Mounting Holes: 2-1/2"
>>> >> center to center Mounting Hardware:1-3" Gold plated bolt and nut,
>>> >> 1-3" Bronze bolt and
>>> nut,
>>> >> 3 copper washers
>>> >> Weight: 3 Lbs.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> - Use for basic bonding and grounding
>>> >> - Improves performance of electronics and reduces RF
>>> >> interference
>>> >> - Offers the best path for hull bonding without long runs of
>>> >> copper
>>> foil
>>> >> - Equivalent to 12 square feet of copper foil
>>> >> - Provides a direct, low resistance path for improved lighting
>>> protection
>>> >> - Deters electrolysis and galvanic corrosion
>>> >> - Sintered porous bronze sphere construction for maximum
>>> conductivity in
>>> >> a compact size
>>> >> - Low drag, non fouling shape
>>> >> - Easy to install
>>> >> - Easy to clean with wire brush
>>> >> - Conforms to ABYC standards
>>> >>
>>> >> From the installation instructions:
>>> >> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> . . . . ._\\|//_
>> . . . . .[-o-o-]
>> ---ooO-[_]-Ooo------
>> . . . .Doug Rose
>> dougmrose at gmail.com
>> . . 301 916 1593
>> --------------------
>> . . . . . || ||
>> . . . ooO Ooo
>>
>>
>
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