[Alexandria Radio Club Reflector] Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a battery cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?

Gene Jenkins n4jee at comcast.net
Fri May 28 18:25:27 EDT 2021 

A hole in the water that you pour money in.

On 5/28/2021 6:07 PM, Ian wrote:
> BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand
>
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021, 17:56 Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you so much, Doug and Ian.
>>
>> I couldn’t ask for better advice.
>>
>>
>> I *thought* that the heat-shrink crimps with a ratcheting crimper was the
>> way to go, but based on the feedback from you too, I’m now convinced that
>> soldering and using the techniques described by Doug are definitely the way
>> to go.
>>
>> I’m glad to hear the warning about welding cable… it makes sense.   I’ll
>> only use tinned copper cables, especially given this information.
>>
>> I was already looking at a long install.  Now if I solder everything,
>> it’ll take that much longer.
>>
>> Hmm…  I’ll have to think on this one long and hard.   Maybe my solution
>> will be to solder the most critical circuits, like those related to
>> starting the engine and keeping it running, and crimp the others… at least
>> for now.   It’s not that I don’t believe you… i really *do*…. it’s just
>> that I’ve cued up soooo many projects for myself, and I’d like to get in
>> some boating time too… so I might split the difference by soldering the
>> most important connections, crimping with heat shrink the less important
>> ones, and leaving some extra wire on each of the crimped connections so
>> that I can easily clip them off, and redo them with solder in the future.
>>
>> Regarding the wire size,  I’d definitely considering 4 AWG or 2 AWG, but
>> nothing larger.   Between the boat that I bought last year, and all of the
>> money that I’ve already spend re-fitting her,   I’ve got to mind my budget,
>> otherwise my wife might put me out and *make* we sleep on Fish Beware.
>>
>> Here’s a photo of Fish Beware.  As I do more work, I’ll take more.  I also
>> plan to make a “build thread” on a wellcraft V20 speciality site.
>>
>> I’ll post back here with the link once I get some photos up.
>>
>> Thanks so much for your expertise.   I *am* listening and learning, and I
>> really appreciate it!
>>
>>   Sincerley,
>>            -Philip
>>
>> On May 28, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Ian <iann8ik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The voice of experience speaks!  Yes, I also crimp, but then solder.  In
>> the marine world, crimping makes it ABYC-compliant but soldering guarantees
>> the connection.
>> 73, Ian N8IK
>>
>> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:29 PM dougmrose <dougmrose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil,
>>> You have tapped into a world of expertise, but as a lifetime boat owner
>>> in Florida, the graveyard of wiring, perhaps I can add a few thoughts.
>>>
>>> First, forget crimping.  It is useless around salt water.  There are two
>>> problems:  First, unless done expertly, crimping damages the wire at the
>>> point where it exits the crimp, and even if it is reinforced by shrink
>>> tubing, it often separates there.  Second, no matter what you put over the
>>> crimp, it is not gastight and the connection will corrode.  Particularly
>>> bad are the crimp eyes with a permanent plastic cover.  The tool cannot
>>> crimp well through the plastic and the crimp is not tight.  Remember, the
>>> plastic or shrink cover is there to provide a color code, it does not aid
>>> the connection.
>>>
>>> Solder everything.  I solder small wires (AWG 10 and smaller) by using
>>> solder terminals and lightly crimping them onto the wire (so it doesn't
>>> fall off) and dipping them into a solder pot, up to the wire insulation.  A
>>> small gap between terminal and wire insulation allows inspection of the
>>> joint.  The same gap ensures that the shrink tubing doesn't slide off,
>>> since it shrinks more at the gap, and won't move.  Solder flows up the
>>> strands of the wire and reinforces it until well up under the insulation.
>>> I like to use clear shrink tubing, which lets me wrap the terminal joint
>>> with tape of the correct color, and then shrink over it all with clear.
>>> The solder, however, is all that is required to ensure a working joint.
>>>
>>> It is not clear to me whether you are planning to use 4 AWG or 4/0, which
>>> is quite a bit larger.  I used 4/0 on my boat, because it was going to
>>> start Perkins 6-354 diesels, but I assume 4 AWG would start a smaller gas
>>> engine nicely.  It is easy to solder this stuff using solder terminals.
>>> Strip the wire and push it into the terminal along with some paste flux.
>>> Heat with a propane torch, heating the terminal but staying away from the
>>> wire.  Feed the solder between the bare wire and the terminal, and heat
>>> until you are melting the solder on the wire itself.  Many solder terminals
>>> have a small inspection hole at the eye end, and that will tell you when
>>> you are done.  Remember, solder is drawn toward the heat, don't solder just
>>> at the inspection hole.
>>>
>>> After the flux residue is removed, use liquid tape or real electrical
>>> tape to seal the gap between terminal and wire, and then color code and
>>> apply  the shrink.  Heavy wires on boats are often made from small stuff,
>>> to retain flexibility.  I have seen welding cable used.  This gives you a
>>> huge surface area of copper and any salt intrusion is death.
>>>
>>> Finally, crimp technology is expensive.  Terminals and wire must be a
>>> good match, and they charge accordingly.  The tools are very costly.  All
>>> to save a little time in production.  Solder terminals are cheap, the
>>> solder will take up any slack, and the connections are solid metal.  In
>>> short, crimp is for companies.  Solder is for those of us doing small jobs,
>>> like a single boat.
>>>
>>> Just for the record, my cabin cruiser went over 20 years in Florida with
>>> no problems.  My friend Rick Goltz circumnavigated without electrical
>>> problems.  He took my advice and soldered everything.  And, finally, in my
>>> career launching rockets, we found that after the bird had been on the pad
>>> for six or eight weeks, it would start to get wiring failures caused by bad
>>> crimps.  And you cannot compete with the boys in California, their top
>>> notch equipment, layers of quality control, and their dry climate.
>>>
>>> Sorry to be so long winded.  But contact me if you have any questions or
>>> need anything.
>>>
>>> Doug Rose
>>> AK4QY
>>>
>>> By the way, the little round photo is me at the helm of a Chris Craft
>>> cabin cruiser.  It was 1950.  I was five.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 7:12 AM Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Great!
>>>>
>>>> I’m still working in my wiring plan (draft attached), including figuring
>>>> out what size wire to use for different runs.
>>>> While I don’t want to undersize anything, I’ll have to make the classic
>>>> tradeoff between size and cost.
>>>>
>>>> All wiring will be tinned aluminum.
>>>>
>>>> Also,  I’ve found a company www.batterycablesusa.com <
>>>> http://www.batterycablesusa.com/>, that has  very competitive prices
>>>> for wires, and for a little less than $2 per connection they
>>>> will crimp on a lug of your choice and heat shrink it…. so I’m looking
>>>> at plans and budgets, but I’m tempted to let the pros do the crimping and
>>>> heating since they
>>>> likely have hydraulic crimpers and other professional grade tools.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Jack W4JJ.
>>>>
>>>> I will reach out to you and/or Don if I end up crimping my own cables.
>>>> (Don has some tools too).
>>>>
>>>> A preview of my plans are attached, but they are still a work in
>>>> progress, and once I’m done I’ll probably ask for some input from the more
>>>> experiences hams.
>>>>
>>>> I’m rewiring the whole boat, including moving the battery forward from
>>>> the stern to under the passenger seat much closer to the bow, and also
>>>> adding a 2nd battery and an automatic charge relay that keeps the batteries
>>>> isolated except when the one of them is being charged, then the unit
>>>> connects them in parallel so that both batteries charge.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 73
>>>>
>>>>       -Philip,  W3PJB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2021, at 5:01 PM, W4JJ <jackparker at w4jj.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I have one that should work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 27, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Ian <iann8ik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone have a crimping tool to handle 4ga battery cable?
>>>>>> 73, Ian N8IK
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>> From: Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com>
>>>>>> Date: Wed, May 26, 2021 at 9:22 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a
>>>> battery
>>>>>> cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?
>>>>>> To: Ian Keith <n8ik at arrl.net>, Don (KI4D) <don.ki4d at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Philip J Brown III <phil at pjb3.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Ian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Don,  I’m CC’ing as an FYI… since you’re clearly interested in
>>>> everything
>>>>>> RF ! :-)     )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know if anyone in the club has a battery cable crimper that I
>>>> can
>>>>>> borrow?
>>>>>> Is there any way that you could pose the question to the membership?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m planning to run some 4 Gauge tinned copper wires in both the boat
>>>> and
>>>>>> the 4Runner, and once I crimp and heat-shrink the cables
>>>>>> I’d have no use for a crimper or a cable cutter of that size…  not to
>>>>>> mention that this project is starting to get **expensive**  !!  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here’s the update on my plans for an RF ground for the boat, and also
>>>> for
>>>>>> my 4Runner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Any feedback from you, Don or an Elmer would be warmly welcomed.
>>>> :-)*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found a part on craig’s list for $45 and bought it today — New old
>>>>>> stock…. basically someone bought it and never used.
>>>>>> Westmarine sells the same part new for $109.   The manufacturer
>>>> claims it
>>>>>> has the same effect as 12 sqft of copper foil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s cool.  It’s extremely pourous bronze that is specially bonded
>>>> together
>>>>>> to act as an electrical and RF ground.  You bolt it to the bottom
>>>>>> of your boat, and connect the ground wire to a gold plated bolt using
>>>> gold
>>>>>> plated nuts that are provided.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It also protects the boat from lightning strikes by offering a
>>>> high-current
>>>>>> path to ground.
>>>>>> It has some type of silver conductive paste that’s dried out in the
>>>> box for
>>>>>> my unit… I could probably use a small amount if anyone has a tube of
>>>> that
>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The guy who I bought mine from said that his boat had a lighting
>>>> strike
>>>>>> while at the dock, and while it destroyed his dynaplate and fried his
>>>>>> electronics,
>>>>>> it didn’t blow-out his through-hull transducer, which he said is a
>>>> common
>>>>>> problem that leaves a hole in the hull that sinks many boats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is pretty cool, and all new to me, but I find it exciting!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m planning to use one of these
>>>>>> as my “common RF ground” point for the boat, and another one for the
>>>>>> 4Runner.
>>>>>> I’m planning to run a  4 gauge copper tinned cable from this ground
>>>> to the
>>>>>> dynaplate on the boat, and to the vehicles body near the battery
>>>> ground
>>>>>> on the 4Runner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  From Westmarine:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   1. Marine Electronics <https://www.westmarine.com/marine-electronics>
>>>> /
>>>>>>   2. Marine Communication <
>>>> https://www.westmarine.com/marine-communication>
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>   3. VHF Accessories <https://www.westmarine.com/vhf-accessories> /
>>>>>>   4. Grounding <https://www.westmarine.com/grounding>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: Dynaplate, Bonding Use]larged view of picture, opens
>>>> dialimages
>>>>>> carousel, showing slide 1 of 1
>>>>>> GUEST <https://www.westmarine.com/guest>–Dynaplate, Bonding Use
>>>>>> 0 stars, 0 reviews, skips to reviews
>>>>>> $109.99
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Model # 377010 | Mfg # 4008
>>>>>> SpecsDynaplate, Bonding Use
>>>>>> NameValue
>>>>>> Type Ground Plates
>>>>>> Product Overview
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronze grounding plates replace yards of copper foil. Looks like a
>>>> solid
>>>>>> bronze plate, but actually a porous matrix of bronze spheres,
>>>> presenting
>>>>>> the same effective electrical surface as a much larger expanse of
>>>> copper
>>>>>> foil. Use as electronic ground for SSBs, Lorans and ham transceivers,
>>>> or as
>>>>>> a ground reference in bonding systems. Includes gold-plated bronze
>>>> flathead
>>>>>> fasteners and silver contact paste for superior conductivity. Plates
>>>> have
>>>>>> tapered ends and rounded edges for reduced turbulence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Standard Dynaplate
>>>>>> Part No. 4006
>>>>>> Dimensions: 6.0"W x 2.0" H x 0.50" D
>>>>>> Mounting Holes: 2-1/2" center to center
>>>>>> Mounting Hardware:1-3" Gold plated bolt and nut, 1-3" Bronze bolt and
>>>> nut,
>>>>>> 3 copper washers
>>>>>> Weight: 3 Lbs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   - Use for basic bonding and grounding
>>>>>>   - Improves performance of electronics and reduces RF interference
>>>>>>   - Offers the best path for hull bonding without long runs of copper
>>>> foil
>>>>>>   - Equivalent to 12 square feet of copper foil
>>>>>>   - Provides a direct, low resistance path for improved lighting
>>>> protection
>>>>>>   - Deters electrolysis and galvanic corrosion
>>>>>>   - Sintered porous bronze sphere construction for maximum
>>>> conductivity in
>>>>>>   a compact size
>>>>>>   - Low drag, non fouling shape
>>>>>>   - Easy to install
>>>>>>   - Easy to clean with wire brush
>>>>>>   - Conforms to ABYC standards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  From the installation instructions:
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> . . . . ._\\|//_
>>> . . . . .[-o-o-]
>>> ---ooO-[_]-Ooo------
>>> . . . .Doug Rose
>>> dougmrose at gmail.com
>>> . . 301 916 1593
>>> --------------------
>>> . . . . . ||   ||
>>> . . . ooO   Ooo
>>>
>>>
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