[Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info

Tue Jul 8 03:08:00 2003

Duane:
The speakers that required AC power were sometimes called "Electrostatic
Speakers". The power was required for electrostatic tweeter elements to
"faithfully reproduce the high frequencies with crystal clear clarity".
The quote is from the an ad in the Lafayette Radio 1973 catalog. It was a
poor seller for the time we had them in the catalog. Customers also kept
returning them as defective because they kept forgetting to throw the
ON/OFF switch to ON. Besides the AC cord being plugged into the wall
outlet, you still had to connect the two speaker terminals to the
amplifier.

My Dynaco amplifier speaker connections have no plus or minus on the
terminals. Terminals are labeled Common, 4, 8, and 16. Is 4, 8, or 16
plus; is Common plus; or is it vice versa? The answer is, as I said
several days ago and as Mark also states, it doesn't make any difference
as long as the connected configuration for each channel is the same.
There is no plus or minus. These are audio frequencies we are dealing
with and are sinusoidal (alternating)  in nature. There is no polarity
involved, only phase. If you perceive to hear a difference with only one
speaker connected and then reversing the leads, your brain is just
playing tricks with you. Picture one symmetrical sine wave feeding a
woofer. The wave rises in a positive direction, woofer goes from rest to
push out; wave drops back to zero, woofer returns to rest; wave rises in
the negative direction, woofer pulls in; wave drops back to zero, woofer
comes to rest. If you turn the leads around, the woofer will do the same
thing except push out and pull in are reversed. The important thing to
remember is that all the speakers connected to your amplifier be
connected so that they are in phase with each other.

Pete

On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:53:21 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
<[email protected]> writes:
> Mark,         
>         
> Interesting information, thank you.          
>         
> I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies 
> that actually
> plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do 
> not recall
> them catching on once the curios were satisfied. 
>                         
>         
> You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a 
> difference. I simply
> prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment. 
>         
>         
> When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I 
> tried
> connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way 
> and decided to
> use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my 
> systems marked
> on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out 
> when I did
> take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker 
> cone, that I
> had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable 
> difference.         
>         
> Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive 
> goes to speaker
> negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears 
> say
> otherwise.         
>         
> I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are 
> contradictory,
> is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different 
> angle or
> perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed 
> before.                 
>         
> Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker 
> output was
> in AC current before.         
>         
> DBF        
> 
>         
>  
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: AA6DX <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> 
> Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your 
> battery did,
> causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may 
> make a
> "pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to 
> use the
> markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you 
> have a
> stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  
> You will
> not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the 
> KARAOKE
> effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the 
> out-of-phase
> presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an 
> FM
> stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the 
> board and
> created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input 
> is
> actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
> I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this 
> great
> group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to 
> think
> all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a 
> broadcast
> engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy 
> fourth of
> july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our 
> number
> forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> >
> > I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not 
> permit a
> > discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree 
> and
> still not
> > short circuits.
> >
> > In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should 
> go to
> the
> > positive terminal on the speaker.
> >
> > Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: Robert    J. McKee <[email protected]>
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
> >
> > Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> > from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think 
> about
> > that for a bit before flaming.
> > Bob McKee
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: AA6DX <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > >
> > > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put 
> together.
> > > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  
> That is
> > > factory, Duane.
> > > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, 
> the
> > > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers 
> are the
> > > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are 
> dealing with
> > > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the 
> oooom in the
> > > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later 
> years,
> > when
> > > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the 
> grilles to
> > > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood 
> and took a
> > > serious
> > > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six 
> staples, three
> > > down each
> > > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill 
> material, the
> > wood
> > > panel
> > > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can 
> not state
> > that
> > > this
> > > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > > >
> > > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, 
> with two
> > > speaker
> > > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just 
> to their
> > > right,
> > > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > > >
> > > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker 
> cone,
> > what
> > > is it?
> > > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > > >
> > > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today 
> with a
> > battery
> > > to be
> > > > sure.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Duane W8DBF

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