[TheForge] Coordinated Hammers (was: Light weight forging equipment)

ries niemi ries at riesniemi.com
Mon Dec 29 08:57:04 EST 2014 

good point- most gun barrels today are made exactly this way- there is a video of steyr hammer forging rifle barrels using exactly such a machine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMzyNHkjpk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMzyNHkjpk>

ries


> On Dec 29, 2014, at 10:07 AM, David E. Smucker <davesmucker at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> These type of "hammer machines" exist -- they are called swaggers and have
> two or four hammers.  Mostly used to cold reduce round or tubing stock.
> Some have been made to work hot material.  Not to be confused with hydraulic
> fitting swaggers but somewhat similar in function.
> SMS in Germany also makes large 3 roll mills for hot reduction of round and
> heavy seamless tubing (think pipe).  They cost in $ millions.
> 
> Dave
> Brasstown, NC
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce
> .
> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2014 9:26 PM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Coordinated Hammers (was: Light weight forging
> equipment)
> 
> Dan,
> 
> No to Problem No. 1.  If the hammers are both suspended by the mechanism,
> you don't have to lift them, only accelerate them.   A simple example is
> shown in a video somebody on this list may know how to find.  In it a
> blacksmith swings what must be at least a 30-lb hammer, suspended from above
> on a chain or rope.  Very easy to do that.
> 
> Problem 2 could be minimized by proper design of the coordinating mechanism,
> but I don't assert that there's any easy way to ensure simultaneous opposite
> blows.
> 
> But KIS:  Use a hammer and anvil.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> NJ
> 
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Daniel T Hayes <dhayes at dthayes.com> wrote:
> 
>> Problem #1: The two hammer setup set up doubles the work required to 
>> get the same result. Whatever work you put into lifting the one hammer 
>> also has to go into lifting the opposing hammer.
>> 
>> Problem #2: It will be impossible to get the timing perfect and the 
>> result will be like Frosty's example of holding the work off the 
>> bottom die in a power hammer. The work together with the two hammers 
>> would act very much like a three pendulum "executive pacifier" (those 
>> swinging clacking suspended steel ball toys). The work piece will not 
>> ride along in contact with the first hammer to strike but rather 
>> bounce completely off (toward the second hammer). When the second 
>> hammer hits the back and forth action will begin.  Neither safe nor 
>> efficient from a mechanics/physics perspective.
>> Red
>> hot steel would have about the same rebound as using lead balls in the 
>> pendulum toy but placing cold work would be exciting.
>> 
>> I'm sure you could work out an arrangement to control/minimize the 
>> problems but in the end I doubt the result would be either safe or 
>> smaller/lighter than the original anvil-hammer combination. As a 
>> minimum you'd double the work required. You last sentence pretty well 
>> sums it up; "But, I can do the same thing with ONE hammer and an anvil!"
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
>> Bruce .
>> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2014 2:36 PM
>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: [TheForge] Coordinated Hammers (was: Light weight forging
>> equipment)
>> 
>> The safety fix could be to have two parallel striking surfaces.  
>> Either the hammers strike the workpiece, or, if somebody goofs and 
>> doesn't insert the workpiece, the secondary striking surfaces hit each 
>> other.  These latter would be made of unhardened steel, so might deform
> but wouldn't shatter.
>> 
>> The secondary surfaces could be remote from the primary hammers so as 
>> not to be in the way.  The gap between the primary hammers could be 
>> made adjustable by adjusting the secondary ones  -- which could be a 
>> neat feature if you're trying to forge to a set thickness.
>> 
>> Of course, if you build a mechanical hammer like this, somebody is 
>> gonna complain that they can't swing the hammer by hand!  (Voice of 
>> experience speaking here.)
>> 
>> Which brings on the next thought.  Suppose you took two hand hammers 
>> (or thing that were nearly so) and connected them through some 
>> guidance mechanism vaguely resembling a lazy tongs or pantograph such 
>> that the faces come together at the workpiece.  Use a tool balancer 
>> (to take the weight and to allow some motion of the mechanism) and you 
>> could suspend this mechanism on the far side of your work support (the 
>> mental equivalent of the place where your anvil is now).
>> 
>> So you grab one hammer in your left hand and one in your right.  These 
>> could be BIG hammers because the mechanism would support the weight.  
>> You then swing the two hammers together against the workpiece, one 
>> from the left, one from the right.  The mechanism would ensure that 
>> they'd strike from opposite sides at the same moment.
>> 
>> I can just see perfecting this only to hear somebody complain, "But, I 
>> can do the same thing with ONE hammer and an anvil!"
>> 
>> Bruce
>> NJ
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Andy Gladish <anjgladish at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Maybe it's old hat, but I just realized, sitting here looking out 
>>> the window at lake Michigan at our vacation cottage, that the 
>>> physics of forging might not require a heavy anvil if you simply had 
>>> two coordinated hammers hitting above and below.
>>> Lots of safety considerations, don't try this @home, kids.
>>> 
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