[TheForge] Coordinated Hammers (was: Light weight forging equipment)

Mon Dec 29 08:07:12 EST 2014

These type of "hammer machines" exist -- they are called swaggers and have
two or four hammers.  Mostly used to cold reduce round or tubing stock.
Some have been made to work hot material.  Not to be confused with hydraulic
fitting swaggers but somewhat similar in function.
SMS in Germany also makes large 3 roll mills for hot reduction of round and
heavy seamless tubing (think pipe).  They cost in $ millions.

Dave
Brasstown, NC

-----Original Message-----
From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce
.
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2014 9:26 PM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Coordinated Hammers (was: Light weight forging
equipment)

Dan,

No to Problem No. 1.  If the hammers are both suspended by the mechanism,
you don't have to lift them, only accelerate them.   A simple example is
shown in a video somebody on this list may know how to find.  In it a
blacksmith swings what must be at least a 30-lb hammer, suspended from above
on a chain or rope.  Very easy to do that.

Problem 2 could be minimized by proper design of the coordinating mechanism,
but I don't assert that there's any easy way to ensure simultaneous opposite
blows.

But KIS:  Use a hammer and anvil.

Bruce
NJ

On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Daniel T Hayes <dhayes at dthayes.com> wrote:

> Problem #1: The two hammer setup set up doubles the work required to 
> get the same result. Whatever work you put into lifting the one hammer 
> also has to go into lifting the opposing hammer.
>
> Problem #2: It will be impossible to get the timing perfect and the 
> result will be like Frosty's example of holding the work off the 
> bottom die in a power hammer. The work together with the two hammers 
> would act very much like a three pendulum "executive pacifier" (those 
> swinging clacking suspended steel ball toys). The work piece will not 
> ride along in contact with the first hammer to strike but rather 
> bounce completely off (toward the second hammer). When the second 
> hammer hits the back and forth action will begin.  Neither safe nor 
> efficient from a mechanics/physics perspective.
> Red
> hot steel would have about the same rebound as using lead balls in the 
> pendulum toy but placing cold work would be exciting.
>
> I'm sure you could work out an arrangement to control/minimize the 
> problems but in the end I doubt the result would be either safe or 
> smaller/lighter than the original anvil-hammer combination. As a 
> minimum you'd double the work required. You last sentence pretty well 
> sums it up; "But, I can do the same thing with ONE hammer and an anvil!"
>
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
> Bruce .
> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2014 2:36 PM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: [TheForge] Coordinated Hammers (was: Light weight forging
> equipment)
>
> The safety fix could be to have two parallel striking surfaces.  
> Either the hammers strike the workpiece, or, if somebody goofs and 
> doesn't insert the workpiece, the secondary striking surfaces hit each 
> other.  These latter would be made of unhardened steel, so might deform
but wouldn't shatter.
>
> The secondary surfaces could be remote from the primary hammers so as 
> not to be in the way.  The gap between the primary hammers could be 
> made adjustable by adjusting the secondary ones  -- which could be a 
> neat feature if you're trying to forge to a set thickness.
>
> Of course, if you build a mechanical hammer like this, somebody is 
> gonna complain that they can't swing the hammer by hand!  (Voice of 
> experience speaking here.)
>
> Which brings on the next thought.  Suppose you took two hand hammers 
> (or thing that were nearly so) and connected them through some 
> guidance mechanism vaguely resembling a lazy tongs or pantograph such 
> that the faces come together at the workpiece.  Use a tool balancer 
> (to take the weight and to allow some motion of the mechanism) and you 
> could suspend this mechanism on the far side of your work support (the 
> mental equivalent of the place where your anvil is now).
>
> So you grab one hammer in your left hand and one in your right.  These 
> could be BIG hammers because the mechanism would support the weight.  
> You then swing the two hammers together against the workpiece, one 
> from the left, one from the right.  The mechanism would ensure that 
> they'd strike from opposite sides at the same moment.
>
> I can just see perfecting this only to hear somebody complain, "But, I 
> can do the same thing with ONE hammer and an anvil!"
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Andy Gladish <anjgladish at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's old hat, but I just realized, sitting here looking out 
> > the window at lake Michigan at our vacation cottage, that the 
> > physics of forging might not require a heavy anvil if you simply had 
> > two coordinated hammers hitting above and below.
> > Lots of safety considerations, don't try this @home, kids.
> >
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