[TheForge] Merry Christmas

Fri Dec 27 13:17:12 EST 2013

Hey Ed...The next CA Blacksmith Assn spring conference is going to be down in Vista.
Don't miss it! See you there.
Check the CBA site ( calsmith.org, i think)

On Dec 27, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Ed Eccleston wrote:

Thank you so much, you guys!  I'm old enough and have been in the trades most of my life, so  I understand most of the mechanics of which you speak.  I've also spent some time perusing the anvilfire site, so the vocabulary is mostly recognizable.  Learning the ins and outs of the heat treating processes that Frosty nicely described will ultimately be practice, practice, practice.   I've read and seen some videos where smiths could tell temperature from the color.  THAT must be an acquired ability, and that was why I was curious about the IR thermometer.  
  Personally,  I'm a kitchen designer and cabinet maker, and have been toying with the idea of making my own hinges and hardware.  Considering the absolute volume of that stuff, much coming from overseas,  hand making hinges would never be cost effective.  It may however give me a marketing advantage with the more discerning clientele with more disposable income. 
Being in Southern Ca,  there are a few of those types.  Any thoughts on the concept would be appreciated.
   Thanks Mike and Frosty for the responses, and I'll keep you up on my progress.

Ed Eccleston

Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 27, 2013, at 1:09 AM, "Jerry Frost" <akfrosty at mtaonline.net> wrote:
> 
> Gee Ed questions! Let's see Hmmmmm: in order. Depends, The right ones, No.
> Nothing, it's an oxymoron. Scrap yard, side of the road, old barns, shops,
> ask everyone you meet EVERYONE. Sure but not necessary. Some were poor
> smiths or jerks, some the only game in town, here there everywhere but rare.
> 
> I love snappy rejoinders, puns and straight lines.
> 
> Asking, what's the best type of forge?" Is like asking what kind of vehicle
> should I buy? It's just too vague a question with so many variables we could
> spend days listing them. In short it depends on what kinds of fuel are
> available and what kind of things you want or need to forge. Most of us have
> a few or more forges of different sizes or fuel types and use what's right
> for the process. What size hammer can YOU control without hurting yourself?
> Again way too vague a question but my answer covers the important basics. 
> 
> You can't draw the temper OUT of steel. Heat treating is any heat process
> that effects the steel's mechanical properties. There are a few basic ones.
> Hardening this process involves heating the steel to critical temperature,
> commonly gauged by the steel's loss of magnetism, a bit hotter and the
> steel's lattice molecular structure is open and carbon atoms are forced into
> the spaces between the atoms. When rapidly chilled (quenched) the carbon
> atoms become locked in the steel's molecular lattice. This makes it more
> difficult for the iron atoms to slide past each other so the steel becomes
> HARD AND RIGID. Too hard or rigid and the steel is brittle. The higher the
> carbon content the more it will harden or embrittle, from about 0.03% to 2%
> carbon it's steel, above 2% it's cast iron and crumbly brittle. Below 0.3%
> commonly referred to as 30 points of carbon, one point is 0.01% and there is
> too little carbon to significantly affect it's hardenability so it's
> referred to as mild steel. Belo about 5 pts. Is iron, not steel. (I think
> it's 5 pts.)
> 
> Now for the next heat treat process. Once the steel has been hardened
> there's a high probability it is too brittle to be useful so you must "draw
> the temper." Tempering is controlled softening to the desired hardness and
> toughness or perhaps springiness, etc. Tempering by eye is the most
> difficult heat treating process most of us do. A lot of guys temper in an
> oven, garage sale toaster ovens and a good oven thermometer are usually good
> enough for most processes. Therre are bladesmiths who have high end ramping
> ovens with lab grade controls. It depends on what you need or desire.
> 
> Now for the third basic process. Annealing. This is softening the steel to
> it's softest state. Annealing is done by bringing the steel to it's critical
> temperature and allowing it to cool as slowly as necessary depending on the
> alloy to allow the carbon to migrate out of the iron's molecular lattice.
> Many high alloy steels say containing vanadium or manganese above a certain
> trace % require equipment most blacksmiths don't have, it's not a home shop
> process. High carbon/LOW alloy steels can be annealed easily in the average
> home blacksmith's shop. IF you know how but that's just knowledge and
> practice. TAKE NOTES!
> 
> And the fourth and last common heat treatment process is "normalizing" for
> most low alloy high carbon steels you can draw enough temper to relieve
> stresses induced by forging bending etc. Heat to critical and let it air
> cool. This is short of annealed but generally enough to ensure non-brittle
> and safe for general use or final tweaking. Here's where "normalizing" can
> bite you in the butt BIG TIME, performing this process on an AIR HARDENING
> STEEL will bring it to full hardness. Steel containing more than a couple %
> molybdenum is air hardening. Moly steel is the only air hardening steel I
> can think of off the top of my dented head.
> 
> Okay, that's it for the bare bones basic heat treating sampler, maybe enough
> to give you some reading ideas. On to anvils. An anvil is something heavy
> and hard enough to let you deform HOT steel on it with a hammer. Boulders
> are still used in some parts of the world or by bored blacksmiths on camping
> trips. Something heavy and hard is all you really need, the London pattern
> is really only a couple hundred years old. Forget Harbor Frieght anvils,
> they're cast iron anvil shaped objects and not hard enough to work well,
> boulders work MUCH better. There are good anvils being made today but
> they're going to cost a bunch. A good quality anvil in good condition is
> going to cost too, if you're lucky you'll find one in the $3.00/lb range or
> less. 
> 
> There are however a number of good alternatives: RR rail is a fine time
> honored anvil. Rail is 1080 low alloy steel, it's hard and tough as can be
> but is generally pretty light for moving iron well. If you mount it on end
> however all the mass is under the hammer and it becomes a darned affective
> anvil. You don't really need an anvil much larger than the hammer face and
> there are all kinds of useful things you can make with a little grinding on
> the flange and web. There are a number of bladesmiths using anvils that are
> 4"x4" square steel shafts mounted on end as their main anvil. 4140 chrome
> moly steel is highly desirable shaft anvil steel. Round shafting or
> rectangular, etc. is all good.
> 
> You're probably asking WHY mount it on end? An anvil works by resisting
> movement and reflecting the energy of the hammer blow back towards the
> hammer. The hot steel is pinched between hammer and anvil and the anvil's
> "rebound" strikes it from below. The anvil's rebound is determined by a few
> factors but mostly by it's "depth of rebound". The impact wave from the
> hammer travels through the steel at the speed of sound through that
> particular steel. When it reaches the far side/end it drives into the
> support and the steel returns the energy via elastic rebound. The deeper the
> steel rebounding the more energy is returned and the harder it hits back.
> Standing a piece of shaft on end is the way to do it if you can.
> 
> Then of course there are all the other hunks and chunks of steel you may
> find. Japanese bladesmiths are making incredibly high quality swords on
> anvils that are no more than square blocks of steel sitting on the ground.
> Rail car couplers make fine anvils they not only have flat surfaces but gobs
> of interesting and handy shapes. Fork lift tines make superb anvils with a
> little welding shop work, they're generally 4140 chrome moly. However, if
> all you can find is a piece of say 2-3" plate you can make an excellent
> anvil by mounting it on it's side and some creative grinding. Brian Brazeal
> has made some superb anvils this way.
> 
> Avoid cast iron it just lacks the rebound to move metal well.
> 
> Why does anybody get treated the way they do? Seriously some blacksmiths are
> liars, thieves and worse, while most seem to be princes. We're human beings,
> good bad, indestructible vulnerable, just like everybody.
> 
> I know there are quite a few smiths making livings in the craft but most of
> us are just muddlin along. Tom latane is one, Brian Brazeal, Francis
> Whitaker(sp?), oh darn, I'm drawing a blank on names Pete does okay, a
> couple of the guys up here make their living but I don't know who's getting
> rich. There's a saying to that end. How do you make a million as a
> blacksmith? Start with two million.
> 
> What are they doing? Another way too vague a question. I will say however
> probably the best and most common good living being made at the anvil is the
> Farrier's trade. Yeah, shoeing horses, lots of horses in America, more now
> than there ever were. I'm mostly a hobbyist but do have a few things I can
> sell, some spinning tools. Deb my darling wife is a spinner and I make a
> dandy doffer the girls seem to love. I do some decorative hardware and
> occasional architectural. I am not trying to make a living at it though, I
> smith because I like playing with fire and hitting things with hammers. And
> that's no fooling. 
> 
> Well, I think I've rambled long enough for now. A lot of what you're asking
> actually requires more knowledge to even ask good questions let alone
> understand specific answers. I  hope I've kept it simple enough to not be
> too confusing.
> 
> Frosty
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ed Eccleston
> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:26 AM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Merry Christmas
> 
> Hah!  Ok, you asked for it...   So, what type of forge is best?   What size
> hammer should I use?
> Should I draw the temper out of spring steel before forge welding?  And what
> the heck does that actually mean?  Where can I get a cheap but good anvil?
> Is a point and shoot infrared thermometer a good way to check metal temp.?
> Why were some smiths treated like dirt in history, and others like royalty?
> Who are the guys making a really decent living in the trade, what are they
> building and is there a common denominator?
> 
>   Just joking on most of the above (although not all....).  
> 
> 
> Ed
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Dec 25, 2013, at 8:38 AM, CGRAF <adveniam at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 12/24/2013 7:58 PM, Ed Eccleston wrote:
>>> I am an avid reader, but too amateur to post.  I want to thank you all
> for the great banter as well as information posted on the site.  Do not let
> it atrophy!
>>>  Merry Christmas to all!
>>> 
>>> Ed Eccleston
>>> Professional wood butcher
>>> Neophyte smith
>> Everyone here was once a neophyte.
>> 
>> Many of us are still amateurs which means we do it for the love of it , as
> opposed to professional which means we would try and make money from it.
>> 
>> Truth be told it is the neophytes posting which have kept this list alive
> and useful.
>> 
>> The posts from the old timers full of inside jokes and sometimes an arcane
> bit of knowledge can easily be the beginning of a lists death spiral.
>> 
>> So ask away with the questions all you lurkers. Even if it is the ten
> thousandth time it has been answered , we all had the question answered for
> us at some point .
>> 
>> Now it is pay back time.
>> 
>> Mike Graf
>> .
> 
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