[TheForge] Merry Christmas

Fri Dec 27 13:12:08 EST 2013

Thems good answers Jerry.
I think Ed either has a lot of reading to do,
or a lot of experimenting.
Ed, most parts of the country have area blacksmithing groups.
Look your's up and go to some meets or conferences.
That's a fast, inexpensive way to learn,
and the tailgate sales often have anvils, etc.

On Dec 27, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Jerry Frost wrote:

Gee Ed questions! Let's see Hmmmmm: in order. Depends, The right ones, No.
Nothing, it's an oxymoron. Scrap yard, side of the road, old barns, shops,
ask everyone you meet EVERYONE. Sure but not necessary. Some were poor
smiths or jerks, some the only game in town, here there everywhere but rare.

I love snappy rejoinders, puns and straight lines.

Asking, what's the best type of forge?" Is like asking what kind of vehicle
should I buy? It's just too vague a question with so many variables we could
spend days listing them. In short it depends on what kinds of fuel are
available and what kind of things you want or need to forge. Most of us have
a few or more forges of different sizes or fuel types and use what's right
for the process. What size hammer can YOU control without hurting yourself?
Again way too vague a question but my answer covers the important basics. 

You can't draw the temper OUT of steel. Heat treating is any heat process
that effects the steel's mechanical properties. There are a few basic ones.
Hardening this process involves heating the steel to critical temperature,
commonly gauged by the steel's loss of magnetism, a bit hotter and the
steel's lattice molecular structure is open and carbon atoms are forced into
the spaces between the atoms. When rapidly chilled (quenched) the carbon
atoms become locked in the steel's molecular lattice. This makes it more
difficult for the iron atoms to slide past each other so the steel becomes
HARD AND RIGID. Too hard or rigid and the steel is brittle. The higher the
carbon content the more it will harden or embrittle, from about 0.03% to 2%
carbon it's steel, above 2% it's cast iron and crumbly brittle. Below 0.3%
commonly referred to as 30 points of carbon, one point is 0.01% and there is
too little carbon to significantly affect it's hardenability so it's
referred to as mild steel. Belo about 5 pts. Is iron, not steel. (I think
it's 5 pts.)

Now for the next heat treat process. Once the steel has been hardened
there's a high probability it is too brittle to be useful so you must "draw
the temper." Tempering is controlled softening to the desired hardness and
toughness or perhaps springiness, etc. Tempering by eye is the most
difficult heat treating process most of us do. A lot of guys temper in an
oven, garage sale toaster ovens and a good oven thermometer are usually good
enough for most processes. Therre are bladesmiths who have high end ramping
ovens with lab grade controls. It depends on what you need or desire.

Now for the third basic process. Annealing. This is softening the steel to
it's softest state. Annealing is done by bringing the steel to it's critical
temperature and allowing it to cool as slowly as necessary depending on the
alloy to allow the carbon to migrate out of the iron's molecular lattice.
Many high alloy steels say containing vanadium or manganese above a certain
trace % require equipment most blacksmiths don't have, it's not a home shop
process. High carbon/LOW alloy steels can be annealed easily in the average
home blacksmith's shop. IF you know how but that's just knowledge and
practice. TAKE NOTES!

And the fourth and last common heat treatment process is "normalizing" for
most low alloy high carbon steels you can draw enough temper to relieve
stresses induced by forging bending etc. Heat to critical and let it air
cool. This is short of annealed but generally enough to ensure non-brittle
and safe for general use or final tweaking. Here's where "normalizing" can
bite you in the butt BIG TIME, performing this process on an AIR HARDENING
STEEL will bring it to full hardness. Steel containing more than a couple %
molybdenum is air hardening. Moly steel is the only air hardening steel I
can think of off the top of my dented head.

Okay, that's it for the bare bones basic heat treating sampler, maybe enough
to give you some reading ideas. On to anvils. An anvil is something heavy
and hard enough to let you deform HOT steel on it with a hammer. Boulders
are still used in some parts of the world or by bored blacksmiths on camping
trips. Something heavy and hard is all you really need, the London pattern
is really only a couple hundred years old. Forget Harbor Frieght anvils,
they're cast iron anvil shaped objects and not hard enough to work well,
boulders work MUCH better. There are good anvils being made today but
they're going to cost a bunch. A good quality anvil in good condition is
going to cost too, if you're lucky you'll find one in the $3.00/lb range or
less. 

There are however a number of good alternatives: RR rail is a fine time
honored anvil. Rail is 1080 low alloy steel, it's hard and tough as can be
but is generally pretty light for moving iron well. If you mount it on end
however all the mass is under the hammer and it becomes a darned affective
anvil. You don't really need an anvil much larger than the hammer face and
there are all kinds of useful things you can make with a little grinding on
the flange and web. There are a number of bladesmiths using anvils that are
4"x4" square steel shafts mounted on end as their main anvil. 4140 chrome
moly steel is highly desirable shaft anvil steel. Round shafting or
rectangular, etc. is all good.

You're probably asking WHY mount it on end? An anvil works by resisting
movement and reflecting the energy of the hammer blow back towards the
hammer. The hot steel is pinched between hammer and anvil and the anvil's
"rebound" strikes it from below. The anvil's rebound is determined by a few
factors but mostly by it's "depth of rebound". The impact wave from the
hammer travels through the steel at the speed of sound through that
particular steel. When it reaches the far side/end it drives into the
support and the steel returns the energy via elastic rebound. The deeper the
steel rebounding the more energy is returned and the harder it hits back.
Standing a piece of shaft on end is the way to do it if you can.

Then of course there are all the other hunks and chunks of steel you may
find. Japanese bladesmiths are making incredibly high quality swords on
anvils that are no more than square blocks of steel sitting on the ground.
Rail car couplers make fine anvils they not only have flat surfaces but gobs
of interesting and handy shapes. Fork lift tines make superb anvils with a
little welding shop work, they're generally 4140 chrome moly. However, if
all you can find is a piece of say 2-3" plate you can make an excellent
anvil by mounting it on it's side and some creative grinding. Brian Brazeal
has made some superb anvils this way.

Avoid cast iron it just lacks the rebound to move metal well.

Why does anybody get treated the way they do? Seriously some blacksmiths are
liars, thieves and worse, while most seem to be princes. We're human beings,
good bad, indestructible vulnerable, just like everybody.

I know there are quite a few smiths making livings in the craft but most of
us are just muddlin along. Tom latane is one, Brian Brazeal, Francis
Whitaker(sp?), oh darn, I'm drawing a blank on names Pete does okay, a
couple of the guys up here make their living but I don't know who's getting
rich. There's a saying to that end. How do you make a million as a
blacksmith? Start with two million.

What are they doing? Another way too vague a question. I will say however
probably the best and most common good living being made at the anvil is the
Farrier's trade. Yeah, shoeing horses, lots of horses in America, more now
than there ever were. I'm mostly a hobbyist but do have a few things I can
sell, some spinning tools. Deb my darling wife is a spinner and I make a
dandy doffer the girls seem to love. I do some decorative hardware and
occasional architectural. I am not trying to make a living at it though, I
smith because I like playing with fire and hitting things with hammers. And
that's no fooling. 

Well, I think I've rambled long enough for now. A lot of what you're asking
actually requires more knowledge to even ask good questions let alone
understand specific answers. I  hope I've kept it simple enough to not be
too confusing.

Frosty

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ed Eccleston
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:26 AM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Merry Christmas

Hah!  Ok, you asked for it...   So, what type of forge is best?   What size
hammer should I use?
Should I draw the temper out of spring steel before forge welding?  And what
the heck does that actually mean?  Where can I get a cheap but good anvil?
Is a point and shoot infrared thermometer a good way to check metal temp.?
Why were some smiths treated like dirt in history, and others like royalty?
Who are the guys making a really decent living in the trade, what are they
building and is there a common denominator?

   Just joking on most of the above (although not all....).  

Ed

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 25, 2013, at 8:38 AM, CGRAF <adveniam at att.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/24/2013 7:58 PM, Ed Eccleston wrote:
>> I am an avid reader, but too amateur to post.  I want to thank you all
for the great banter as well as information posted on the site.  Do not let
it atrophy!
>>   Merry Christmas to all!
>> 
>> Ed Eccleston
>> Professional wood butcher
>> Neophyte smith
>> 
>> 
> Everyone here was once a neophyte.
> 
> Many of us are still amateurs which means we do it for the love of it , as
opposed to professional which means we would try and make money from it.
> 
> Truth be told it is the neophytes posting which have kept this list alive
and useful.
> 
> The posts from the old timers full of inside jokes and sometimes an arcane
bit of knowledge can easily be the beginning of a lists death spiral.
> 
> So ask away with the questions all you lurkers. Even if it is the ten
thousandth time it has been answered , we all had the question answered for
us at some point .
> 
> Now it is pay back time.
> 
> Mike Graf
> .

______________________________________________________________
TheForge mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net

TheForge mail list group photo site is
http://www.shutterfly.com
Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
Password: anvil

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html