[TheForge] OT: Government waste

Fri Mar 23 10:49:04 EDT 2012

Here is an opinion from someone who has been around... he writes...

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf&sa=U&ei=XYtsT7ebJIm2tweg6p2bBg&ved=0CAgQFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGEDtRsv25GUxLyRiZljl2QJEi1Pw

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tinaja.com/glib/morenrgf.pdf&sa=U&ei=XYtsT7ebJIm2tweg6p2bBg&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEL2UfBHhZZui6d0oueDFARlJPg7A

so before the rosy glow of 'sustainable energy' and lets help the 
environment' wears off at least read the foregoing links and get  Don's 
musings.

If you can't abide his critique of PV systems, the Guru's Lair has a 
multitude of electronic and scientific links and information. He wrote 
the book on RTL logic... if you remember what that is you will get an 
idea how long he has been around.

paul
WB9HCO

On 03/23/2012 09:29 AM, wmullett at bright.net wrote:
> No - that is only what you think the facts are. In 2001 the parks service published guidelines to look at individual park lighting systems but not just to save energy.
>
> http://www.nps.gov/sustainability/documents/Energy/NPS_lighting_guidebook.pdf
>
> They also published this outdoor lighting guide:
>
> http://www.everlastlight.com/download/pdfs/everlast/DOE_FEMP_Exterior_Lighting_Guide.pdf
>
> Energy costs are usually just a small, part of the savings from these programs.  The problem is that many people that are not involved in the project just don't know what is going on.  In most projects, the maintenance savings are much greater than the energy savings.  But then again, that is just part of the evaluation.
>
> There are many - many articles on-line that describe US Park retrofit / improvement projects.  If you would post what park you are talking about, maybe we could find some factual information.
>
> ---- Original message ----
>> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:47:58 -0500
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net (on behalf of "Bob Ehrenberger"<eforge at centurytel.net>)
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT: Government waste
>> To:<wmullett at bright.net>,"Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"<theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>
>> The basic facts are the as stated they spent $300,000 to save $8,000.
>>
>> Robert Ehrenberger
>> Shelbyville, Mo.
>> eforge at centurytel.net
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:<wmullett at bright.net>
>> To: "Bob Ehrenberger"<eforge at centurytel.net>; "Blacksmithing List Sponsored
>> by ABANA"<theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT: Government waste
>>
>>
>> AND NOW ... The rest of the story... "They did more than just change light
>> bulbs. The put on solar pannels,
>> ground source HVAC, light tubes, what ever they could think of to be more
>> efficent. "<<  Sure wasn't what you first posted and now everybody will be
>> quoting.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>>> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:43:06 -0500
>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net (on behalf of "Bob Ehrenberger"
>>> <eforge at centurytel.net>)
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT: Government waste
>>> To: "Andrew Vida"<osan at netlabs.net>,"Blacksmithing List Sponsored by
>>> ABANA"<theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>
>>> They did more than just change light bulbs.  The put on solar pannels,
>>> ground source HVAC, light tubes, what ever they could think of to be more
>>> efficent.  They had a mandate from higher up to put together a plan. They
>>> got bids, but a lot of the stuff was just real expensive,  they paid $65
>>> for
>>> LEDs. Acording to him the China sources for CFLs are holding back product
>>> to
>>> drive up prices, CFLs are going to get real expensive in the next couple
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Robert Ehrenberger
>>> Shelbyville, Mo.
>>> eforge at centurytel.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Andrew Vida"<osan at netlabs.net>
>>> To: "Bob Ehrenberger"<eforge at centurytel.net>; "Blacksmithing List
>>> Sponsored
>>> by ABANA"<theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT: Government waste
>>>
>>>
>>> This is typical government-think.  They are not business people mostly -
>>> are not trained in economics, mainly micro in such cases, and are not
>>> trained in either accounting or business analysis.  They apparently have
>>> no concept of "opportunity cost" nor of "hidden cost", nor of return on
>>> assets, nor of general efficiency.  These rocket surgeons get it in
>>> their tiny little brains that they are going to make some sort of ego
>>> play in the public forum, dream up some ill-considered scheme and
>>> proceed to shove it down taxpayer throats no matter how stupidly wasteful.
>>>
>>> Consider the 8K saved per year.  To recoup that $300K investment
>>> *without interest*, it would take 37+ years not including the various
>>> maintenance costs associated with the change, which for all we know may
>>> be even higher than with the old lighting.
>>>
>>> 300K invested at a miserable 5% return, which does not even cover
>>> today's rate of currency inflation (never mind price inflation) would
>>> yield an average interest of $41,852.70 year over year during that same
>>> period, totaling  $1,869,476.33... assuming no economic collapse, which
>>> is no longer safe to rule out, I am sad to report.
>>>
>>> It is clear that whoever it was that decided to remove a presumably well
>>> functioning lighting system for that sum in the interests of saving
>>> $8K/year either knows nothing of even the most rudimentary financial
>>> analysis, has a less-than-honest agenda in mind, is a blithering idiot,
>>> or perhaps may be attributed with some combination of the three.  Were I
>>> his boss, his ass would be on the unemployment line instantly.  That is
>>> TAXPAYER money that is being frittered away so ineptly.  I would not
>>> tolerate it for an instant.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/2012 8:41 AM, Bob Ehrenberger wrote:
>>>> At the BAM meeting last weekend I was talking to one of our members that
>>>> is
>>>> a park ranger. He said that they just finished upgraiding the lighting at
>>>> his park and visitor center.  He said that the upgrade will save them
>>>> $8,000/year in electricity.  And it only cost us $300,000.  Only the
>>>> government would think that spending $300,000 to save $8,000 was a good
>>>> idea, that's a 37 year payback assuming there is no intrest on the
>>>> original
>>>> investment.  If you figure in the cost of the money at 5%, they are
>>>> loosing
>>>> $6,000/year.
>>>>
>>>> But that's OK they had a Fereral grant to pay for it.
>>>>
>>>> Oh yah, now they have a warehouse full of old florescent light tubes that
>>>> they will have to pay to dispose.
>>>>
>>>> Robert Ehrenberger
>>>> Shelbyville, Mo.
>>>> eforge at centurytel.net
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>>
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