[TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
James Binnion
jbin at well.com
Wed Jun 15 12:50:15 EDT 2011
that is 2700 C not F
On Jun 15, 2011, at 4:45 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
> Wikipedeia is a good source:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirconia
> MP ~2700F. Doesn't sound impressive, but
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 1:22 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>> I'd forgotten about that stuff Jerry...wonder how high it will go?
>> I recall some of the chrome oxides are pretty high temp too.
>>
>> So,,Graphene, zirconium oxide and cornstarch?
>>
>> Graphene
>> On Jun 14, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
>>
>>> Zirconium oxide Pete. Though it's a ceramic not a salt but it has a REALLY
>>> high melting temp and a high IR albedo. I coat my forges with it by the
>>> brand name ITC-100. It's darned flux resistant and I've had molten steel
>>> laying on it to no ill effect.
>>>
>>> Zirconium is the first thing I thought of upon reading the article.
>>>
>>> Jer
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:11 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course!
>>>>>
>>>>> Oxygen is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Silicone is a solid
>>>>> melting at about 2500*F. Silicon dioxide (aka quartz or silica) is a
>>>>> solid melting at about 3000*F - a covalent compound of the three
>>>>> atoms. And there are much more dramatic examples than this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sodium is a low-melting metal (~208*F). Chlorine is a gas at room
>>>>> temperature. Sodium chloride is a solid salt melting around 1500*F.
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference is that metals like tin and lead, typically don't
>>>>> combine chemically -- forming new molecules or salts -- whereas oxides
>>>>> like quartz are distinctly new entities, molecules. In some respects,
>>>>> a molecule is like an extended atom -- the electrons are shared
>>>>> between the nuclei. Salts are rather the opposite -- the electrons
>>>>> are not shared, but rather passed completely from one to the other,
>>>>> resulting in an electric charge that keeps the ions together (unless
>>>>> stabilized by a polar solvent, like water). Hence, property changes
>>>>> can be pretty dramatic.
>>>>
>>>> Then is there a handy, refractory salt of high melting temperature metals
>>>> or elements?
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple more thoughts:
>>>>>
>>>>> A material can "resist" energy (i.e., photons) by reflecting it or
>>>>> transmitting it (i.e., being transparent to it). In addition to
>>>>> reflecting energy, a material can fluoresce -- absorb photons of one
>>>>> energy level and emit those of a lower energy level. All these
>>>>> mechanisms could account for a substance surviving in the presence of
>>>>> intense energy. Not all of them are useful for all purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>>>>> In the interesting model you propose, the functional limit is the
>>>>>> temperature at which the "glass" breaks down...even if the carbon core
>>>>>> were to remain stable up to then.
>>>>>> The magical plastic alleges to exceed the limits of it's constituent
>>>>>> elements incredibly ( literally).
>>>>>> In metal alloys, a combination of elements tends to lower the melting
>>>>>> temperature.
>>>>>> Are there high temperature compounds where the opposite is dramatically
>>>>>> true?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rather than wonder about this magical substance that notably has never
>>>>>>> been commercialized, why not brainstorm to find something or some
>>>>>>> things that fill some of those functions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are, for example, a number of ways to resist heat. Most
>>>>>>> refractories (graphite being a notable exception) that resist heat by
>>>>>>> virtue of high melting point and being oxides (impossible to further
>>>>>>> oxidize). Others are ablative -- sacrificial. Graphite almost falls
>>>>>>> into the last category, or maybe does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suppose you try to use bituminous coal as a refractory. Get it hot
>>>>>>> enough and it expands into breeze (coke). It fails at that point
>>>>>>> because it starts to burn, but what if it were somehow protected from
>>>>>>> burning by a refractory "glass" layer. Hence, composite something
>>>>>>> like bituminous coal with some sort of high-temperature
>>>>>>> oxidation-resistant substance. What's neat about this is that the
>>>>>>> breeze would then act as an insulator, protecting what's beneath.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What you want to do is to form your "clinker" right on the surface of
>>>>>>> the breeze. So, this all gives rise to the question of why
>>>>>>> bituminous coal does not already act as a refractory. I suspect that
>>>>>>> probably relates to properties of the breeze vs. the "glass". Maybe
>>>>>>> the glass won't "wet" the carbon? Maybe the continual degassing of
>>>>>>> the coal breaks the glass layer, making it ineffective as a "flux"?
>>>>>>> Maybe the glass sits on the outside of the breeze only, leaving the
>>>>>>> open "gas bubbles" exposed to the air blast? Solve this problem and
>>>>>>> you might develop. Even light microscopy could help determine the
>>>>>>> facts, and scanning electron microscopy would probably solve it in no
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, graphite is mainly of interest because of it's high melting
>>>>>>> point. Perhaps the equivalent behavior could be obtained using more
>>>>>>> standard ceramics. But the "plastic" nature of our hypothetical
>>>>>>> material is now conceivably a problem. How does one form a ceramic in
>>>>>>> a plastic manner? Well, cement comes to mind -- castable or rammable
>>>>>>> refractories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All just brainstorming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:11 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's hard to refrain from thinking of different applications for
>>>>>>>> it....
>>>>>>>> sorta like relations with a harbor Fright catalogue when i was
>>>>>>>> poorer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I posted a note to uk.rec.sheds (chiefly because someone had used the
>>>>>>>>> word "gubbins" and the Starlite guy recounted calling his product
>>>>>>>>> "gubbins" when first encountered) and had this reply:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: bobharvey <robertharvey at my-deja.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sheddi Taxidermy
>>>>>>>>> Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah yes. Starlite. I recall reading almost exactly that article
>>>>>>>>> some 20 years ago in some engineering journal. It included a
>>>>>>>>> photo sequence of someone stirring molten steel with a stick, then
>>>>>>>>> putting the stick in a bucket of water without the normal
>>>>>>>>> dangerous consequences.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always assumed it was all true, unlike the "combustion engine
>>>>>>>>> that runs on water" man, who used to pop up occasionally. 'cos It
>>>>>>>>> was clear that that was bollocks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it's bogus, at least it has staying power. If it's not, why can't
>>>>>>>>> I have some?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
>>>>>>>>> /V\
>>>>>>>>> mspencer at tallships.ca /( )\
>>>>>>>>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>> NJ
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>> NJ
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Bruce
> NJ
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James Binnion
jbin at well.com
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