[TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
peter fels
artgawk at thegrid.net
Wed Jun 15 01:22:15 EDT 2011
I'd forgotten about that stuff Jerry...wonder how high it will go?
I recall some of the chrome oxides are pretty high temp too.
So,,Graphene, zirconium oxide and cornstarch?
Graphene
On Jun 14, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
> Zirconium oxide Pete. Though it's a ceramic not a salt but it has a REALLY
> high melting temp and a high IR albedo. I coat my forges with it by the
> brand name ITC-100. It's darned flux resistant and I've had molten steel
> laying on it to no ill effect.
>
> Zirconium is the first thing I thought of upon reading the article.
>
> Jer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> Of course!
>>>
>>> Oxygen is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Silicone is a solid
>>> melting at about 2500*F. Silicon dioxide (aka quartz or silica) is a
>>> solid melting at about 3000*F - a covalent compound of the three
>>> atoms. And there are much more dramatic examples than this.
>>>
>>> Sodium is a low-melting metal (~208*F). Chlorine is a gas at room
>>> temperature. Sodium chloride is a solid salt melting around 1500*F.
>>>
>>> The difference is that metals like tin and lead, typically don't
>>> combine chemically -- forming new molecules or salts -- whereas oxides
>>> like quartz are distinctly new entities, molecules. In some respects,
>>> a molecule is like an extended atom -- the electrons are shared
>>> between the nuclei. Salts are rather the opposite -- the electrons
>>> are not shared, but rather passed completely from one to the other,
>>> resulting in an electric charge that keeps the ions together (unless
>>> stabilized by a polar solvent, like water). Hence, property changes
>>> can be pretty dramatic.
>>
>> Then is there a handy, refractory salt of high melting temperature metals
>> or elements?
>>>
>>> A couple more thoughts:
>>>
>>> A material can "resist" energy (i.e., photons) by reflecting it or
>>> transmitting it (i.e., being transparent to it). In addition to
>>> reflecting energy, a material can fluoresce -- absorb photons of one
>>> energy level and emit those of a lower energy level. All these
>>> mechanisms could account for a substance surviving in the presence of
>>> intense energy. Not all of them are useful for all purposes.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>>> In the interesting model you propose, the functional limit is the
>>>> temperature at which the "glass" breaks down...even if the carbon core
>>>> were to remain stable up to then.
>>>> The magical plastic alleges to exceed the limits of it's constituent
>>>> elements incredibly ( literally).
>>>> In metal alloys, a combination of elements tends to lower the melting
>>>> temperature.
>>>> Are there high temperature compounds where the opposite is dramatically
>>>> true?
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rather than wonder about this magical substance that notably has never
>>>>> been commercialized, why not brainstorm to find something or some
>>>>> things that fill some of those functions.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are, for example, a number of ways to resist heat. Most
>>>>> refractories (graphite being a notable exception) that resist heat by
>>>>> virtue of high melting point and being oxides (impossible to further
>>>>> oxidize). Others are ablative -- sacrificial. Graphite almost falls
>>>>> into the last category, or maybe does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suppose you try to use bituminous coal as a refractory. Get it hot
>>>>> enough and it expands into breeze (coke). It fails at that point
>>>>> because it starts to burn, but what if it were somehow protected from
>>>>> burning by a refractory "glass" layer. Hence, composite something
>>>>> like bituminous coal with some sort of high-temperature
>>>>> oxidation-resistant substance. What's neat about this is that the
>>>>> breeze would then act as an insulator, protecting what's beneath.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you want to do is to form your "clinker" right on the surface of
>>>>> the breeze. So, this all gives rise to the question of why
>>>>> bituminous coal does not already act as a refractory. I suspect that
>>>>> probably relates to properties of the breeze vs. the "glass". Maybe
>>>>> the glass won't "wet" the carbon? Maybe the continual degassing of
>>>>> the coal breaks the glass layer, making it ineffective as a "flux"?
>>>>> Maybe the glass sits on the outside of the breeze only, leaving the
>>>>> open "gas bubbles" exposed to the air blast? Solve this problem and
>>>>> you might develop. Even light microscopy could help determine the
>>>>> facts, and scanning electron microscopy would probably solve it in no
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, graphite is mainly of interest because of it's high melting
>>>>> point. Perhaps the equivalent behavior could be obtained using more
>>>>> standard ceramics. But the "plastic" nature of our hypothetical
>>>>> material is now conceivably a problem. How does one form a ceramic in
>>>>> a plastic manner? Well, cement comes to mind -- castable or rammable
>>>>> refractories.
>>>>>
>>>>> All just brainstorming.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:11 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> It's hard to refrain from thinking of different applications for
>>>>>> it....
>>>>>> sorta like relations with a harbor Fright catalogue when i was
>>>>>> poorer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I posted a note to uk.rec.sheds (chiefly because someone had used the
>>>>>>> word "gubbins" and the Starlite guy recounted calling his product
>>>>>>> "gubbins" when first encountered) and had this reply:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: bobharvey <robertharvey at my-deja.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sheddi Taxidermy
>>>>>>> Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah yes. Starlite. I recall reading almost exactly that article
>>>>>>> some 20 years ago in some engineering journal. It included a
>>>>>>> photo sequence of someone stirring molten steel with a stick, then
>>>>>>> putting the stick in a bucket of water without the normal
>>>>>>> dangerous consequences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I always assumed it was all true, unlike the "combustion engine
>>>>>>> that runs on water" man, who used to pop up occasionally. 'cos It
>>>>>>> was clear that that was bollocks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it's bogus, at least it has staying power. If it's not, why can't
>>>>>>> I have some?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
>>>>>>> /V\
>>>>>>> mspencer at tallships.ca /( )\
>>>>>>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>> NJ
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>>
>>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>
>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bruce
>>> NJ
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> TheForge mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>
>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>> Password: anvil
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> TheForge mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoworks.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> Password: anvil
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3703 - Release Date: 06/14/11
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> TheForge mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>
> TheForge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoworks.com
> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> Password: anvil
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
More information about the TheForge
mailing list