[TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
Jerry Frost
akfrosty at mtaonline.net
Tue Jun 14 21:09:42 EDT 2011
Zirconium oxide Pete. Though it's a ceramic not a salt but it has a REALLY
high melting temp and a high IR albedo. I coat my forges with it by the
brand name ITC-100. It's darned flux resistant and I've had molten steel
laying on it to no ill effect.
Zirconium is the first thing I thought of upon reading the article.
Jer
----- Original Message -----
From: "peter fels" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] plastic forge? OT:
>
> On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>
>> Of course!
>>
>> Oxygen is a gas at room temperature and pressure. Silicone is a solid
>> melting at about 2500*F. Silicon dioxide (aka quartz or silica) is a
>> solid melting at about 3000*F - a covalent compound of the three
>> atoms. And there are much more dramatic examples than this.
>>
>> Sodium is a low-melting metal (~208*F). Chlorine is a gas at room
>> temperature. Sodium chloride is a solid salt melting around 1500*F.
>>
>> The difference is that metals like tin and lead, typically don't
>> combine chemically -- forming new molecules or salts -- whereas oxides
>> like quartz are distinctly new entities, molecules. In some respects,
>> a molecule is like an extended atom -- the electrons are shared
>> between the nuclei. Salts are rather the opposite -- the electrons
>> are not shared, but rather passed completely from one to the other,
>> resulting in an electric charge that keeps the ions together (unless
>> stabilized by a polar solvent, like water). Hence, property changes
>> can be pretty dramatic.
>
> Then is there a handy, refractory salt of high melting temperature metals
> or elements?
>>
>> A couple more thoughts:
>>
>> A material can "resist" energy (i.e., photons) by reflecting it or
>> transmitting it (i.e., being transparent to it). In addition to
>> reflecting energy, a material can fluoresce -- absorb photons of one
>> energy level and emit those of a lower energy level. All these
>> mechanisms could account for a substance surviving in the presence of
>> intense energy. Not all of them are useful for all purposes.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>> In the interesting model you propose, the functional limit is the
>>> temperature at which the "glass" breaks down...even if the carbon core
>>> were to remain stable up to then.
>>> The magical plastic alleges to exceed the limits of it's constituent
>>> elements incredibly ( literally).
>>> In metal alloys, a combination of elements tends to lower the melting
>>> temperature.
>>> Are there high temperature compounds where the opposite is dramatically
>>> true?
>>>
>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rather than wonder about this magical substance that notably has never
>>>> been commercialized, why not brainstorm to find something or some
>>>> things that fill some of those functions.
>>>>
>>>> There are, for example, a number of ways to resist heat. Most
>>>> refractories (graphite being a notable exception) that resist heat by
>>>> virtue of high melting point and being oxides (impossible to further
>>>> oxidize). Others are ablative -- sacrificial. Graphite almost falls
>>>> into the last category, or maybe does.
>>>>
>>>> Suppose you try to use bituminous coal as a refractory. Get it hot
>>>> enough and it expands into breeze (coke). It fails at that point
>>>> because it starts to burn, but what if it were somehow protected from
>>>> burning by a refractory "glass" layer. Hence, composite something
>>>> like bituminous coal with some sort of high-temperature
>>>> oxidation-resistant substance. What's neat about this is that the
>>>> breeze would then act as an insulator, protecting what's beneath.
>>>>
>>>> What you want to do is to form your "clinker" right on the surface of
>>>> the breeze. So, this all gives rise to the question of why
>>>> bituminous coal does not already act as a refractory. I suspect that
>>>> probably relates to properties of the breeze vs. the "glass". Maybe
>>>> the glass won't "wet" the carbon? Maybe the continual degassing of
>>>> the coal breaks the glass layer, making it ineffective as a "flux"?
>>>> Maybe the glass sits on the outside of the breeze only, leaving the
>>>> open "gas bubbles" exposed to the air blast? Solve this problem and
>>>> you might develop. Even light microscopy could help determine the
>>>> facts, and scanning electron microscopy would probably solve it in no
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, graphite is mainly of interest because of it's high melting
>>>> point. Perhaps the equivalent behavior could be obtained using more
>>>> standard ceramics. But the "plastic" nature of our hypothetical
>>>> material is now conceivably a problem. How does one form a ceramic in
>>>> a plastic manner? Well, cement comes to mind -- castable or rammable
>>>> refractories.
>>>>
>>>> All just brainstorming.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:11 AM, peter fels <artgawk at thegrid.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> It's hard to refrain from thinking of different applications for
>>>>> it....
>>>>> sorta like relations with a harbor Fright catalogue when i was
>>>>> poorer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I posted a note to uk.rec.sheds (chiefly because someone had used the
>>>>>> word "gubbins" and the Starlite guy recounted calling his product
>>>>>> "gubbins" when first encountered) and had this reply:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: bobharvey <robertharvey at my-deja.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sheddi Taxidermy
>>>>>> Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah yes. Starlite. I recall reading almost exactly that article
>>>>>> some 20 years ago in some engineering journal. It included a
>>>>>> photo sequence of someone stirring molten steel with a stick, then
>>>>>> putting the stick in a bucket of water without the normal
>>>>>> dangerous consequences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always assumed it was all true, unlike the "combustion engine
>>>>>> that runs on water" man, who used to pop up occasionally. 'cos It
>>>>>> was clear that that was bollocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it's bogus, at least it has staying power. If it's not, why can't
>>>>>> I have some?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
>>>>>> /V\
>>>>>> mspencer at tallships.ca /( )\
>>>>>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>>
>>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bruce
>>>> NJ
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> TheForge mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>>
>>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>> Password: anvil
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> TheForge mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>>
>>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>>> http://www.photoworks.com
>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>> Password: anvil
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce
>> NJ
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> TheForge mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> TheForge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoworks.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> Password: anvil
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> TheForge mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>
> TheForge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoworks.com
> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> Password: anvil
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3703 - Release Date: 06/14/11
>
More information about the TheForge
mailing list