[TheForge] Slack tank...POL OT

[peter fels & phoebe palmer]

On 12/21/2010 6:14 AM, Andrew Vida wrote:
>
> peter fels&  phoebe palmer wrote:
>> .
>>
>>
>>> 	Desperate, scared people don't think about such things.  They act in
>>> reflexive resistance to dying.
>> In response to overly expensive electricity?
> 	Are you being intentionally obtuse?  The context was NO HEAT -
> therefore no electricity.  None.
Yeah, i just didn't accept your premise.
With plentiful natural gas here in the US ( my response to your premise)
and stunningly vast amounts of recoverable methane hydrates under 
permafrost and in the deep oceans,
That would only be a problem if CO2 emissions were totally outlawed.
>   DOn't recall why that came up - not
> that likely a scenario, but not so far out there that it can be entirely
> dismissed.  And we're also not speaking of isolated cases, even a whole
> city, but entire regions.
>
>>>    Such people are far more dangerous than
>>> you might think, material superiority notwithstanding.
>> Sure...and that's a serious possibility that the govt has to be kept
>> aware of.
> 	To what end?  So they can call up the armed forces?
Armed forces, even today, are disproportionately costly against  armed 
citizen's resistance.
Constitution aside..it's gonna be hard to get  US forces to engage in a 
sustained population wide
campaign against it's own citizens.
( hey, isn't this your position?)
>> That twisted SOB of a long range sniper inadvertently shifted the
>> balance of power some i think.
>> Makes "them" more respectful.
> 	Lost me there.  To what sniper do you refer?
A few years back there were a couple of assh... firing through a hole in 
the trunk of their car,
was it in Washington DC?
If a determined resistance with an effective range of 1000 yards were to 
be wide spread,
It would be very difficult to deal with.
>>>     Unless less of
>>> course you just don't give a shit and murder them all because it is more
>>> convenient.  Given what I see these days in the eyes of the Bush's and
>>> Obammy's of the world, it would no longer surprise me to see it come to
>>> pass.
>> Nah..then they'd run out of taxpayers.
> 	Not sure they care about that, ultimately.
No taxpayers, no money. At that point the gubbermint as we know it 
collapses and we have a dictatorship, at best.
>>>>> Imagine having a car that ran for 50 years without ever needing
>>>>> refueling.  That is the promise of LENR, if it can be made practical.
>>>>> I'd be willing to bet that it can be.  Interference is the real issue,
>>>>> moving forward.
>> Looks like the technology is the real barrier to my mind.
> That may change.  Suddenly even.  In that case I am suspecting it will
> be limited for reasons of politics.
Long odds...fusion has been 20 years away as long as i can 
remember...and that's with major funding.
>>>> Can't make a profit on a 50 year car. Even Checker went under.
>>> 	The availability of ubiquitous free energy would change the status quo.
>> Sure would!...
>> Does bring up unfortunate memories of " Clean, safe too cheap to meter"
> There would be no more meters. Each home would have its own.  SMall
> communities might agree to purchase a larger unit for service.
I'd be delighted...seems very improbable.
Note that small  thermo-electrical generators using heat from radiation 
( from nuke waste?)
Have been technically possible for years and easily built at a household 
scale.
I don't see any around.
>>>     One thing you need to be aware of is that not all corporations are
>>> evil as your words seem to indicate.  There are many companies out there
>>> for whom profit is an important, yet secondary purpose to their
>>> existences.
>> Of course there are some fine, responsible companies.
> Not some.  Most.  The great majority.  I've worked for quite a few of
> them and have had lunch with a couple of very major CEOs.  Not one of
> them were drooling, eville maniacs.  There are exceptions.  I consider
> Monsanto and Bayer to be two of the most evil entities in existence,
> especially Bayer, given what they have been caught at, including mass
> murder.
The morality is much more ill defined in most cases.
I think the majority are as amoral as is economically practicable.
>> . But i can't imagine PG&E, Standard or Exxon or GM letting a product
>> like that come to market.
> 	They would fight it tooth and nail to be sure.
They have very big teeth and crushing influence in the halls of 
government around the planet.
>    That may avail them
> nothing.  People would be behind such technology 101%  I suspect the
> tide would be so great that the only way to stop it would be through
> government initiated violence, which is not out of the question, but
> perhaps not very likely.  They, too, have their limits - particularly if
> "kill them all" is not on the menu.
I sure would like that, but think it's another pipe dream, most likely.
> 	Just had a thought... these reactors would be SO cool (all else equal).
>    Use them for raw power, synthesize 3 phase from it, and power
> everything in the house on 3ph.  Bet 3ph home appliances would become
> popular.  Yeah, that would be way cool.
>
>> Like any animal, most corporations will fight tooth and nail to survive.
> 	Agreed, but there are paradigm shifts that simply cannot be put off
> forever.  As was once observed, there is nothing so powerful as an idea
> whose time has come. :)
An admirable ideal Andy.
>>>    I would also warn against viewing profit as evil.
>> I don't.
> 	Your language is not always clear on that point.  Given how many people
> I have encountered who subscribe to the business/profit is evil idiocy,
> I get suspicious when I hear people say certain things that may betray
> such beliefs.  This mindset is far more common than is healthy for this
> nation as a whole.
>
>>> 	Tesla was working on this idea.
>> Think he was working on broadcasting power.  but it was neither clean
>> nor cheap. Just handier than wire transmission.
> 	I was referring to FREE energy, not personal reactors.  My bad.
>
>>>    When he died his body was literally
>>> not yet cold when FBI raided his place and took all his notes.
>> He may have been obnoxious but he was brilliant and should have been
>> supported all down the line,
>> instead of screwed over like he was. Capitalism in action?
> 	Obnoxious?  Not to my knowledge.  Quite the gentlemanly sort as I have
> gathered.
I'd read that he was a pretentious, self important, intolerant stuffed 
shirt who was hell on his underlings.
That doesn't matter in the long run of course.
>    He was a lousy businessman - naive to a fault for way too
> long and got swindled badly by that scumbag Edison, may he rot in hell.
>    The only large player who didn't screw him at every turn was George
> Westinghouse and even he betrayed him in the end precisely because
> either he didn't want to wreck the balance of power or his colleagues
> put some sort of gun to his head to force him.  Who knows for sure?
> Even history screws him - giving radio credit to that buffoon Marconi
> who stole everything he "knew" from Tesla who made radio transmissions 2
> to 4 years prior to Macaroni.
Was it JP Morgan who left him dangling in the end?
> 	Tesla is, thus far, the single greatest creative engineering genius
> that has ever blossomed in the history of humanity.  His genius was
> truly freakish.  Newton, Einstein, and not even Bohr can compare for
> accomplishment within a lifetime.  His work was simply staggering in its
> subtlety and scope.  He did some crazy stuff.
I fear we both are too dumb to make that assessment.
>>> They would not fold.  Auto industry could still build cars as they now
>>> do.
GM, Chrysler..Studebaker,and so on...yup, they can fold.
>>>    The 10-20 year service life of the cars would end with the reactors
>>> recycled.
Tucker, Packard etc...Superior, enduring autos all.
>> They can easily build cars with a 25 year service life ., but they used
>> to be designed to last 3 to 5 years, by in large.
> 	Demand will present them with the choice to bow to the will of the
> market or die.  They will likely bow.  If they die, there will be plenty
> of others to take up the slack.  Such free energy, coupled with digital
> technology will revolutionize manufacturing.  I would predict that small
> and even tiny manufacturers would pop up, assuming the ridiculous
> government regulatory framework is peeled back such that the barriers to
> entry are taken down.  They serve no purpose but to keep competition
> down.  Effectively free energy, however, would likely change that even
> if regulation remains.  The government would take a royal shit, no
> doubt.  They might even attempt to erect even higher barriers, but I am
> not yet convinced they would succeed.  Some might just say "fuck you"
> and move forward in any event.  Get thousands of companies doing it and
> "government" would be pretty impotent to do anything about it,
> especially given the snail's pace of our courts.  Fuck 'em.  We don't
> need them that much.  Press on - ignore them and be prosperous. :)
Some of the regulations are justifiable. I live on a major highway and 
have been in or seen too many
crushed cars to think otherwise.
I grew up in LA and remember riding to school with my eyes and lungs 
burning. my asthma appearing,
tears streaming down our kiddie faces and air the color of a paper 
grocery sack with 100' visibility.
I remember going to the 22 st landing in San Pedro and seeing nothing at 
all alive in or above the water, save the big rats.
It's really different now.
All of my fishing and body surfing buddies from back then, with one 
exception, ended up with one kind of cancer or another.
\And so on.
So, yes, i think regulations can serve a purpose admirably,,,despite the 
howls we heard from industry at the time.
Does the above qualify as the social costs you recently dismissed?
The big zorroesque scar from my crotch to my diaphragm plus all my other 
missing parts ( smarts included) argue otherwise Andy.
>> Though some of the Japanese cars have gone 350,000 miles without major
>> problems.
>>>    Converge the automobile power applications such that the
>>> reactors become commodity items and get used over and over.  The cars
>>> remain as they are, just not burning oil.
>> A satisfactory battery could do the same.
Long ago, it was proposed that the auto mfgs collaborate and build the 
best possible engines and drive components,
for them all, and enjoy the qualitative and economys of scale that that 
could bring.    Didn't happen.
> 	Still leaves the problem of centralized sourcing of energy, which
> should come to an end as soon as technically practical to do so.
> Imagine the millions of miles of transmission facilities coming down
> forever.  Sounds good to me.
Sounds good, alternative energy efforts lean that direction, but it 
ain't gonna be soon.
>> The conversion to Natural gas isn't a very big leap and ought to stave
>> off major change for a while.
> Doesn't solve the core problem of central sourcing, pollution, energy
> efficiency, and so forth.  Another palliative measure.
Agreed..but, .nothin better currently exists.. despite generations of 
generation hopes and billions of $..wish it were otherwise.
>   If there is any
> reasonable chance of developing practical LENR technology, I would drop
> everything else and concentrate on that with free market fury.
So would a whole lot of other folks...nothing convincing in sight, just 
yet..
>>> The power industry as it exists might well go down.  Boo hooty hoo.  The
>>> pressures to allow such devices would be enormous.  Refusal to allow it
>>> could get a lot of people hurt.
>> The probable  adversarys are much more subtle and powerful than you are
>> allowing for..
> 	I doubt that.  People are fed up with the status quo.  Seeing a light
> at the end of this particular tunnel would have them sprinting toward it
> and I bet that once educated on what this paradigm shift would mean to
> the world, to THEM, bottling it up would be a futile effort.  When
> people are determined in sufficient numbers, those calling themselves
> "government" cannot stop them, again, unless the mob is will to kill
> people en masse to stop them.  Not unprecedented, but a more risky
> proposition here than in other nations because we are still well armed
> and very dangerous by that virtue.  Three hundred pissed off, well armed
> Americans v. maybe, *maybe* 1 million government forces... things would
> be interesting at the least.  Even more so was the Oval Office to call
> for UN intervention.
Good luck
Imagine the cost of such a device...bet it would approach the future 
cost of solar photovoltaics.
So folks would get to choose between, say $5000 for independent power, 
vs $150 a month electric bill.
Where's your mass uprising?
> Technology is a two edged sword to be sure.  Our only hope to be free is
> to make sure advances remain in EVERYONE'S hands and not some group of
> elitist jerkoffs.
"Everyone can make dismal decisions en masse. Plenty of examples. 6 of 
1...half dozen of the other.
>    As it is there is plenty of scary shit in those
> hands.  I've worked on some of it and can tell you that most people
> don't want to know about stuff like that.  They'd never be able to sleep
> again.
That the attendant catastrophes are less common than you or i expect, 
says something.
Hardly advocating giving up the sparks, but think we need to be
>>>>>> considering the whole cost of burning coal.
>>>>> Right now we have no other choices.  Take heat away from people in
>>>>> winter on a large scale and see where that gets us.
>>>> Natural gas heats our asses just fine.
>>>>     Wish i had it here. local propane monopoly sticks it to us.
>>>>
>>>> We have wells, so we have unlimited free gas, which is a great blessing
>>>> especially since we are broke.  But tomorrow I will hear from
>>>> Boots&Coots whether they will hire me and if so, we won't be broke no
>>>> mo'.  Still, I have to build a large gas forge now so I can take
>>>> advantage of the 35PSI line. :)
>>     May B&C grovel at your feet , stuffing $ in your pockets,  and the
>> new forge come soon, sweet and hot.
> 	No royalties, sadly, but all the free gas I can burn, which is a rare
> deal because most arrangements are for a limited amount - though usually
> quite generous, like 400K cu ft./yr.  That is a lot of gas, but I bet I
> could burn through that and more in a year. :)
Mmmmm... Giant forging? a pottery firing service? Brick making? A scrap 
to ingot service? Annealing or heat treating business?
Pour a mud house and shop and fire it? Recycle bottles into thick 
decorative panels and bricks?
Large steel  structural element forming service? And so on...Arf Arf!!!
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