[TheForge] local codes OT OT

[Andrew Vida]

Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer wrote:
> 
> Andrew Vida wrote:
>> Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>>
>>> You know the problem there. The narcs in my yard thought they were doing 
>>> the right thing...and knowingly ignored what they thought was a crap 
>>> law...We'd rather they used less of their judgment mostly if we are 
>>> going to have " a nation of laws".
>> 	Eeesh... an absolutely horrible concept, as commonly regarded.  Law is 
>> placed on a pedestal, as if it was somehow divine.  It isn't.  It is a 
>> human contrivance and is as easily crap as it is reasonable.  In fact, 
>> it is far more often crap than anything else.  Worshiping this sort of 
>> thing is not sane.
> Like democracy, it's a pitiful thing, but we ain't got nuttin better 
> that lasts more than a generation or 2.

	The Swiss have been at it for over 750 years.  This seems to be prima 
facie proof that when properly regarded and actively maintained, good 
things can in fact last.

> We do not have, nor will we become, a society of thinking, responsible 
> adult citizens. The system has to muddle through with that inherent 
> handicap.

	I don't agree.  We are as we are because we have collectively allowed 
ourselves to be cowed by a small elite into believing precisely what 
they want us to believe.  This is nothing new in human power politics. 
It is an old, boring saw that most of us play along with for reasons 
that don't say much good about humans in general.

> Just to argue a point i don't altogether support......
> Do you really want to arm the gullible? Grin.

	Yes.  Necessity brings people, even the gullible, around.

> There would be those who'd say, that's you and me.

	Those who are both gullible AND stupid.  Dangerous, but as we see every 
day, they are manageable.

>>>>>> 	Only because most of us have abdicated responsibility for our own lives 
>>>>>> at the most fundamental levels.
>>> Huh..What's that got to do with coping with criminality?
>> 	Were we more in possession of ourselves WRT, for example, defense of 
>> life and limb against violence, we would be better off.  In all the 
>> places I've lived where people carry firearms, crime is lower than in 
>> places where they do not.  In the former, people are more responsible 
>> for their own wellbeing and far less dependent on police.  This strikes 
>> me as a good thing and my experience backs it up.
> Holland? Denmark? Sweden?

	USA, Switzerland, Finland, Austria, just to name 4.

>>  > We supposed to
>>> shoot them for cause? I don't trust my fellow man that much at all.
> And if they killed the chickens i loved, just for fun?

	Drill 'em.  That's the ticket.

>> 	If the cause is life and death, sure.  Would you sit idly as someone 
>> gutted you like a fish?  I wouldn't and I haven't.  Had I, pretty 
>> certain I would be dead.
> Choices on that level are obvious...but people in different states of 
> mind interpret their circumstances very differently from each other 
> sometimes.

	Correct.  So?

> Disagree again...you are talking about just a few incidents ( a day?) 
> compared to the terrifying chaos we'd see in an LA without cops.

	The reality of places like LA would be greatly altered were people to 
become serious about things like respect for others.  This only comes 
about with real effort and the willingness to use force.  There isn't, 
they aren't, all talk to the contrary notwithstanding, and therefore 
they live in a hell hole.  Their choice, in the final analysis.

	OTOH, cleaning up a place like south central without killing off most 
of the gangsters might be a grand challenge indeed.  Well, it took 
better part of 100 years to decay to this level - why would it be much 
easier to pull ourselves back up?

> You had to reach all the way across the country and back in time, to 
> find that example. The cops were outed in the paper and the policy might 
> even have changed.

	Irrelevant.  A group of bandits plotted and executed the theft and 
murder of another citizen and the local prosecutor was complicit in 
refusing to press charges.  Anyone not seeing the profound threat this 
poses is blind.  It's usually tolerable as long as you're not the one on 
  the receiving end.  Opinions change rapidly once that changes.

	In addition, there are tons of other cases once can dig up.

> Hell, it made the paper. So it's by definition unusual. ( or at least 
> that it was exposed was unusual).

	It really isn't that unusual.  Know many cops?  I've been acquainted 
with quite a few.  The stories they told of cops on the take, even their 
own crooked dealings would leave you fretting.  Hell, I was in Tonio's 
deli (quietly infamous NYC mob hangout) one night in 1980, watching 
Animal House with "the boys" when two Manhattan South beat cops came in 
and picked up 1/8th of cocaine.  They were in uniform and on duty.  This 
wasn't unusual - it was a daily thing.  Probably still is.  So to call 
dangerously corrupt behavior by police "unusual" is really disconnected 
from reality.  Even small towns are not immune.  My friend Ed just 
became the new sheriff.  One of the first things on his plate is a 
thorough investigation of the old one, whose corruption is widely known. 
  Hell, his own daughters are two of the largest meth dealers in the 
country and beyond.  This shit is EVERYWHERE.

	Here's another - a Freehold NJ cop caused an 8 car pile up on Rt. 9 
south in Freehold.  He stopped, got out of his car, saw what he'd done, 
and burned rubber getting the hell out of there.  To my knowledge he was 
never caught, even though the police department knew exactly who it was. 
  My friend witnessed the whole thing and was called to court as a 
witness.  The judge was well pissed off.  The litany of crooked and 
murderous things that many cops do is almost endless, particularly in 
huge metropolitan areas like NYC and LA.

> Leseee...talks to chickens, believes what he reads in the paper, carries 
> a gun and knows how to use it!!! An armed chicken sympathizer! There 
> room there beside you Andy?

	Not much, but I'll make an exception for you.

	Papers?  Are you joking?

>>>>> Nah...once again you are reducing it to a black and white issue..too 
>>>>> simplistic.  
>>>> 	Not at the heart of it.  You just said it yourself above - it is our 
>>>> fault.  That includes everyone.
> As soon as you include everyone, things get gray fast.

	How so?

>>> Look...they re elected Bush, is the reality...idealism aside, what can 
>>> you realistically expect?
>> 	That is a whole other kettle of fish.
> It's a fine indicator of the quality of the decisions we can anticipate 
> in the future.

	And that is. once again, our fault.  We allowed our school system to 
churn out dummies.

>   We speak normatively on the one
>> hand, and positively on the other.  We can't achieve the normative 
>> ideals, but on the positive side there is no reason we cannot do a whole 
>> hell of a lot better.  IMO.
> The idealist in me nods, but..
> Oh , you know the reasons too;
> We push the steaming pile in the direction of our druthers as well as we 
> can.
> Hope it stops smelling so bad pretty quick.

	Don't hold your breath... much as you might otherwise feel compelled to.