[TheForge] Foundations and shop design

Sat May 24 10:29:58 EDT 2008

Ekaterina,
Another word of caution with respect to PVC for compressed air.

I had recently ripped out all of the PVC air lines in my shop and 
replaced it with copper (Type L or Type K, the heavier stuff meets code 
for compressed air, Type M does not)

I have heard for years that PVC eventually becomes brittle, and can fail 
in an explosive manner, sending PVC shrapnel around. I was able to find 
a lot of controversy, and ignored it for several years; but eventually 
decided to replace it with copper.

Well, when I went to rip out the old PVC, guess what? It had gotten very 
brittle in severala spots, and a lot of pieces broke when I was trying 
to remove them. It made me very glad I took the safer route.

So you may want to re-evaluate or at least research the decision to use 
PVC for compressed air.

**paul

GRAF wrote:
> This may not be a good idea in your particular situation, but it is 
> something I used when the intentional low spot in my piping became 
> inaccessible when I moved some things around the shop.
> 
> Instead of a drain tee I installed a 1/8 "ID copper tube which 
> terminated at a ball valve on the wall right next to a light switch. It 
> is easy access and when I turn out , or on the lights I am reminded to 
> drain the lines. It works like a champ. I installed another on the 
> bottom of the compressor tank.
> 
> Mike Graf
> 
> Ekaterina Harrison wrote:
>> Andy.
>>
>>>     What sort of steel?  Rebar?
>>
>> Actually it is some oid drill steel pipe, about 1 1/2'".
>>
>>>
>>>     Air line IN the concrete?  This does not seem advisable to me.
>>> Generally speaking, I would want the moisture trap(s) to be installed at
>>> the lowest points on the "permanent" lines.  Otherwise moisture will be
>>> able to collect in the lover points on the line and that will make all
>>> good opportunity for corrosion.  If your lines are entombed in concrete,
>>> well... you get the picture, no?
>>>
>> Good point.  The lines are pvc, but indeed will be at the lowest 
>> point. I did not think about the water issue. We were mostly focused 
>> on an easy way to get across big bay doors on both sides .
>>
>> Thank you for all the good advice.
>>
>> Ekaterina
>>
>> P.S. Could not help but notice the " lover points" typo. LOL
>>
>> On May 23, 2008, at 12:43 PM, theforge-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 13:56:13 -0400
>>> From: Andrew Vida <osan at netlabs.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Foundations and shop design
>>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Message-ID: <4837053D.50000 at netlabs.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ekaterina Harrison wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> We are just getting ready to a pour a cement floor in the new shop, we
>>>> are building. I have the opportunity here to address and improve my 
>>>> work
>>>> environment. I am very excited about this. One of the things we are
>>>> doing is running steel
>>>
>>>     What sort of steel?  Rebar?
>>>
>>>> under the cement across the whole length of the
>>>> shop to to provide more grounding points around the shop and running
>>>> pipe for airline hook ups and some conduit for stringing some wiring to
>>>> the other side of the shop.
>>>
>>>     Air line IN the concrete?  This does not seem advisable to me.
>>> Generally speaking, I would want the moisture trap(s) to be installed at
>>> the lowest points on the "permanent" lines.  Otherwise moisture will be
>>> able to collect in the lover points on the line and that will make all
>>> good opportunity for corrosion.  If your lines are entombed in concrete,
>>> well... you get the picture, no?
>>>>
>>>> One of the issues that I have been trying to figure out is the best way
>>>> to mount a power hammer and treadle hammer.
>>>
>>>     The general recommendation is a very large concrete block with
>>> cribbing.  I don't recall the precise design from Chambersburg, but for
>>> a 250# hammer, the block was something of 5' thick by 3 wide and 4 deep
>>> with timber at the bottom arranged grain horizontal in 2 layers, each
>>> 90* to the other.  I know several people who have mounted hammers on far
>>> less substantial foundations than this and have had no problems.
>>>
>>>> My current power hammer is
>>>> bolted to the floor with a 1" rubber mat between it and the floor. As
>>>> you might guess in the area around the hammer the floor has sustained
>>>> some damage and I, also, have had a hell of a time with my tools 
>>>> jumping
>>>> of benches when I work the hammer. So, it seems quite clear that in the
>>>> new shop the hammer should have its own independent foundation. We have
>>>> been considering several options:
>>>>
>>>> We are planning to leave a graveled area just big enough for the 
>>>> hammer(
>>>> surrounded by the cement floor) or possibly cut out the section of 
>>>> floor
>>>> after we have figured out the best location for the hammer. And then :
>>>>
>>>> 1- independant cement foundation 1' thick
>>>
>>>     If you're going to do it, do it right.  I don't think 1' is really
>>> enough for this sort of arrangement.  Consider that I am the sort to
>>> over-engineer things such as these.  But consider that when it breaks,
>>> it will invariably do so at the worst possible moment.  Better it never
>>> break.
>>>
>>>     Another thing I would reconsider is pouring the floor before the
>>> foundation.  I would give careful consideration to the proper location
>>> of the hammer first, then build the foundation, then put in the 
>>> floor. YMMV.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Issues I have been wondering about:
>>>> If hammer is set on timbers is there a balance issue to consider - 
>>>> as in
>>>> keeping it from tilting and moving?
>>>> I know that the treadle hammer ,I made, I never did mount it to the
>>>> floor, figuring that it was heavy enough it should stay put. I was
>>>> surprised just how much it did move across the floor.
>>>>
>>>> Any suggestions, pro and cons, experiences of mounting hammers and
>>>> general shop layout would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>     I am a firm believer in making sure potentially ornery machinery 
>>> stays
>>> put.  An unrestrained hammer can get plenty ornery.  As I said, do it
>>> right the first time, don't cut corners and you can forget about it
>>> pretty well forever.
>>>
>>
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