[TheForge] fire steels

Fri May 16 14:48:16 EDT 2008

Does grinder sparking necessarily mean high carbon?
The traditional legend has it that those sparks from burning steel are 
bits of carbon leaving.....reduction rather than increase of carbon....pf

Bruce Freeman wrote:
> This is not a chemistry thing, this is direct observation.  Put a
> piece of mild steel in the forge, get it so hot it burns in the forge
> - sparkles like Vesuvius.  Let it cool.  Ugly blistered steel.  Take
> to grinder - tests as high carbon.  Try it yourself.
> 
> Bruce
> NJ
> 
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:32 AM, David E. Smucker
> <davesmucker at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Are you sure Bruce, just because iron is burning doesn't mean it is somehow
>> taking up carbon.  Explain the chemistry -- for it to burn doesn't there
>> have to be excess O2?  Or is burning iron striping the O from CO.
>>
>> When burning or lancing steel the product I find are melted steel balls and
>> red iron oxide.  When we cut up a large backup roll in my old day job (think
>> tank trucks of liquid O2) the lancing generated a heavy cloud of red iron
>> oxide.  I have never burned wrought or pure iron on the other hand.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Bruce Freeman" <freemab222 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:40 AM
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>
>>> Even easier -- That piece of iron you burned in the forge while your
>>> brain was where it shouldn't be - that has absorbed enough carbon to
>>> be a striker.  Forge it into shape and  no need to use expensive
>>> steel.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>> NJ
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer
>>> <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>>> Predictability in a striker seems less than critical.
>>>> They could have soaked a thin pieces of iron in a reducing fire for a
>>>> while
>>>> to make steel on the cheap i'd guess...pf
>>>>
>>>> Grant Marcoux wrote:
>>>>> It would hav ebeen the less-predictable blister steel as well!
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>>>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Hirst
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:42 PM
>>>>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't mean to suggest that wire was used in period, jus that I was able
>>>>> to
>>>>> duplicate it that way.  It wasn't just general scarcity of steel in the
>>>>> period, it was the particular circumstances of the colony in 1627.   Way
>>>>> before the period of Williamsburg.  Essentially subsistence conditions.
>>>>>  The
>>>>> amount of steel required for a single striker could steel a  large axe
>>>>> or
>>>>> dozens of  strikers, at a time when labor was a lot more plentiful than
>>>>> materials. The smith did not make his living at it.  Was literally dirt
>>>>> poor
>>>>> like everyone else. It was a huge deal that the colony received its
>>>>> first
>>>>> two head of cattle that year.  Imagine what a bit of steel was worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keziah
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David E. Smucker" <davesmucker at hotmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While it is true that "steel" was valuable and somewhat scarce in the
>>>>>> 1600
>>>>>> and 1700 even harder to come by would be any form of high carbon wire.
>>>>>>  So
>>>>>> if "fire steels" in that time frame were steeled -- then the high
>>>>>> carbon
>>>>>> steel was drawn down to a small form by hammer forging.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The invention of the slitting mill was I believe in 1752 and was the
>>>>>> precursor to the rolling mill.  It was first used on heave hammer iron
>>>>>> plate to produce iron bars.  Later used to produce iron nail rod from
>>>>>> hammer or rolled sheet.  Drawing of wire followed, but when Eli Whitney
>>>>>> was working on his invention of the cotton gin 1793 he had to make his
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> draw bench to draw high carbon wire because he could not purchase it.
>>>>>>  (At
>>>>>> least in the then USA).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this is to say is that getting "small" section steel was a labor
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> love in the 1600's and first half of the 1700's.  High carbon "blister"
>>>>>> steel had been around for some time at this point and files made from
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> tool steel were very important in the manufacture of all types of
>>>>>> equipment. Spring steel for clock making also drove technology in this
>>>>>> time frame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the most interesting parts about talking to the Williamsburg
>>>>>> Blacksmiths at the BAM conference was the discussion about the pay and
>>>>>> role of craft workers in the colonial time period and early USA.  By
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> standards they were highly paid.  They did mostly repair and special
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> that earned them this high pay.  Production work was imported from
>>>>>> England
>>>>>> and the continent were labor costs were much lower.  Why the high pay
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> because in the Americas they could own land, and owning land was the
>>>>>> route
>>>>>> to wealth.  In England there was no land for them to own, no route to
>>>>>> wealth, a good supply of craftsman's so their earning were lower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lesson to be learned -- blacksmiths should charge as much for their
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> today as plumbers and electricians.  It is the story of supply and
>>>>>> demand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: "osan" <osan at netlabs.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:16 PM
>>>>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Hirst wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sorry , thought the reason was clear:  steel was extremely scarce,
>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>> the wire was a conservation measure.
>>>>>>>  OK, I could see this... at least in circumstances anyhow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  -Andy
>>>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bruce
>>> NJ
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> 
> 
> 