[TheForge] coal or charcoal morph to Evaporust

[James Binnion]

You can get all kinds of strange and wonderful stuff happening in  
electrolytic cells, the hard part is controlling it.
Good Luck


On Jun 25, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer wrote:

> Thanks Peter;
> Sounds like finishing fun. Possibly using mixed metals,resists and  
> inclusions under a patina?
> peter
>
> Peter Hirst wrote:
>> He means FIRMLY as in electroplated.  Whatever is in the anode that  
>> can be dissolved --chrome, copper from the battery clip, impurities  
>> etc -- will migrate through the solution and chemically bond with  
>> the work piece, but in an uncontrolled manner.  SOme of these bonds  
>> are as strong as the crystalline structure of the iron itself. And  
>> some of these can actually promote re-rustingafter the treatment.   
>> This is one reason why an alkaline solution is recommended.  No  
>> interference with the electrolytic reduction at the cathode (+).
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer" <artgawk at thegrid.net 
>> >
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"  
>> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] coal or charcoal morph to Evaporust
>>> James;
>>>
>>> "you will end up
>>> > with all kinds of junk firmly attached to your work piece."
>>>
>>> Please expand on this subject ,if the "firmly" part means permanent.
>>> What is the final surface effect?.......pf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> James Binnion wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 24, 2008, at 9:51 PM, Peter Hirst wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frosty:  you answered your own question on the phosphoric acid.  
>>>>> Nasty stuff in any strength.
>>>>
>>>> It is used in many food products at the appropriate dilution  
>>>> (think soft drinks)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not sure it would work in electrolyte bath.  The electrolysis  
>>>>> tends to redeposit the iron back onto itself, while the  
>>>>> phosphoric acid tends to dissolve the elemental iron.  The  
>>>>> chemical action of the acid and the electrlysis are two  
>>>>> different reactions.  The sole function of the ion in the bath  
>>>>> is to conduct electricity, which in turn exactly reverses what  
>>>>> happens in the the creation of ferric oxide -oxidation.  
>>>>> Phosphoric acid dissolves the iron itself, which is why its used  
>>>>> to etch for other fininsh preps.
>>>>
>>>> The rust dissolving nature of your electrolytic setup is from the  
>>>> reduction of the iron oxide (rust) back to iron by the atomic  
>>>> hydrogen liberated at the cathode(-) from the electrolysis of the  
>>>> water in your electrolyte. If you use an acid like phosphoric in  
>>>> the electrolyte solution you will end up dissolving the anode(-)  
>>>> into the electrolyte and those ions will then plate out on the  
>>>> workpiece which you really don't want them to do. This is the  
>>>> basis for electroplating but your electrolyte will not be a very  
>>>> good plating solution and you will end up with all kinds of junk  
>>>> firmly attached to your work piece.
>>>>
>>>> James Binnion
>>>> jbin at well.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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James Binnion
jbin at well.com