[TheForge] jobs OT

Fri Jun 13 17:24:35 EDT 2008

I know we've been asked to take it outside, but  I just can't let this 
onepass.

Grant wrote:

"  It remains to be seen how much of a threat to the existence of
our nation post 9/11 acts of terrorism will be."

No, it does not remain to be seen.  We know now and the Bush administration 
has known all along that the threat to our EXISTENCE as a nation is zero. 
None.  Even Bush and Cheney have dropped the pretense of "those who seek to 
destroy us"  and  talk now about "folk who want to hurt us". Our EXISTENCE! 
Please.  The entire combined power of all things al Qaeda is MAYBE that of 
two counties in eastern Kentucky.  No offense, Kentuckians but, if you think 
a couple thousand deranged criminals constitute a NATION that could possibly 
threaten our EXISTENCE, then you don't hink much of the strength of the 
country or its institutions.   I hate to think of  it actually happening, 
but this country could sustain ten or a huindred times the 911 attacks, and 
as outrageous and morally devastating that might be, it would not put a dent 
in our viability as a nation.   We might SELF destruct out of the 
fearmongering of those who profit by protecting us from illusory threats, 
but the outside force itself can't even come close.  We proved that by
virtually ignoring the destruction of New Orleans. Al Qaeda and the combined 
strength of every terrorist organization on the planet -- and you can 
include Iran, North Korea, and the Posse Comitatus, if you like -- even 
assuming they were a single organized force, don't have a minute fraction of 
what it would take to destroy us as a nation, and I am sick to death of 
hearing this criminal gang talked about as if  they were the Third Reich. 
So far, since these yahoos started operating twenty or so years ago the only 
damage to our institutions has been those we have allowed our own government 
to impose.

National Security my ass!.  I'll say it again and then shut up.  The entire 
"WAR" on terror is a money and power grab preying on the illusion that we 
are being kept safe from an illusory threat.  I am four square with Ben 
Frnaklin on this:  those who would give up essential liberty for a little 
security deserve neither liberty nor security.

God bless the Reagan-Clinton-Bush Supreme Court --  with the exception of 
two  moronic dissenters --  in upholding the writ of habeas corpus in the 
face of the  fear and cowardice this overblown selling of the THREAT has 
caused.

There.

I feel better now.

Peace

Peter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grant Marcoux" <gblacksmith at alamedanet.net>
To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:55 AM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] jobs OT

Hi Peter:  It remains to be seen how much of a threat to the existence of
our nation post 9/11 acts of terrorism will be.  Interestingly enough, the
confederacy, the Japanese in WW2 and the anti-American elements in the
mid-east and elsewhere have a common thread: a desire to confront a
seemingly superior power in a struggle for survival, and a desire for
autarky.

I don't see how you can claim categorically that those who sponsored the
9/11 attacks, triggering the "war on terror" are ultimately less of a threat
than the confederacy or the Japanese; in fact this distinction is less
easily made as we are facing essentially a nation, as opposed to an
identifiable state. It is this uncertainty that is driving policy
formulation.

To those deprived of their rights, the "temporarily justified extraordinary
measures" you describe are being employed today under the same rubric of
necessity.  One person's civil rights violation is another's "necessity."
"Necessity" has long been the rallying cry of the despot and the creed of
the servile.

I would also disagree with you on the relative loss of civil liberties
during the cold war vs. the current war on terror.  We tend to reflect on
the doings of the House un-American Activities Committee as only having
affected a few artists.  In fact, whole careers and lives were ruined via
innuendo of communist sympathy, reasonable suspicion and probable cause were
ignored routinely, no matter who made the accusation, much as our Muslim
population is under suspicion today.

I completely agree with you about the significance of civil liberties,
having served this country under arms for most of my adult life.  I made it
a point to study what I risked my hide for.

Grant

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Fels &
Phoebe Palmer
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:58 PM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] jobs OT

Hi Grant;
The civil war and WW2 were major threats to this to the existence of our
nation, formally declared wars and  temporarily may have justified
extraordinary measures.
The "war on terror" is not in that category.
Neither is it of comparable gravity to the " commie threat" then.
I did not say Bush was toxic.
I meant that under Bush , we have lost more of our CIVIL LIBERTIES to
what was then, a relatively minor threat.....than we lost during the
whole commie threat, cold war and all!
Our civil liberties are an important part of what makes this a great nation.
"> Political Correctness is just the latest attempt to convince SOME
folks that
 > you CAN pick up a turd by the clean end."
LOL!!! Got that right....pf
 >

Grant Marcoux wrote:
> Pete:  Even at 63, you are not old enough to remember that Habeas Corpus
was
> suspended during our Civil War and that there were "secret military
> tribunals" in WW2 and of course, the incarceration of our
Japanese-descended
> American citizens without even the pretense of legal proceeding.  This
> tub-thumping was led by a man who was later to become a Supreme Court
> justice and a champion of liberty: Earl Warren.  Check out his historic
role
> in the "gentleman's agreement" regarding Asian immigration into CA in the
> 30s.
>
> Bush more toxic than communists?  Can't agree with that one either.  Check
> up on the "De-Kulakization" of the Soviet Union under Stalin and
> administered by Khrushchev.  Millions killed under the theme of
> "Collectivisation"
>
> Bush dosen't come close.
>
> We tend to forget these things in the heat of the moment.
>
> Political Correctness is just the latest attempt to convince SOME folks
that
> you CAN pick up a turd by the clean end.
>
> Grant
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Fels &
> Phoebe Palmer
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:21 PM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] jobs OT
>
>
> We have gone markedly faster in that direction under Bush than at any
> time i can remember....I'm 63.
> Based on an attack fomented by a just few thousand extremist loonies,
> our president has abrogated more of our constitution than  whole
> generations of entire nations full of communists managed.
> This is way too close to Nazi values for me....pete f
>
> schade at acegroup.cc wrote:
>> On Jun 10, 2008, at 1:39 PM, <Grover.Richardson at gtri.gatech.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Seig Heil
>>>
>>
>> Sieg Heil is a German phrase, which literally means "Victory Hail" or
>> "hail victory". During the Nazi era, it was a common call at political
>> rallies. When meeting someone, it was customary in Nazi Germany to give
>> the Hitler salute and say the words "Heil Hitler". "Sieg Heil" was
>> reserved for mass meetings such as the ones at Nuremberg where "Sieg
>> Heil" was shouted in unison by thousands. Often a Nazi official would
>> shout into a microphone "Sieg" and the crowd would answer with "Heil,"
>> and there might be several repetitions of this at times in
>> ever-increasing volume. At such rallies there was often a display of
>> banners carrying the slogan "Sieg Heil" along with the swastika. The
>> NSDAP (Nazi Party) made a pin badge in 1933 displaying a victory wreath,
>> the Swastika, and the words "Sieg Heil".
>>
>> The expression itself was born during a party meeting, when Joseph
>> Goebbels said "Sieg heil" and all supported the phrase (however an early
>> associate of Hitler, Ernst Hanfstängl, claimed to have devised it).
>> Since Nazism argued that war was a way to determine the superior race
>> and that Germans were that superior race, hailing war was to hail the
>> struggle that would eliminate all others and establish, in a social
>> Darwinist manner, the "New Order."
>>
>> Today in Germany, using the greeting in written form, vocally, and even
>> extending the right-arm without the phrase are forbidden. 1. It is a
>> criminal offence punishable by up to three years of prison (StGB,
>> section 86a)2. The same is true for expressions that might be mistaken
>> for "Sieg Heil". Usage for art, teaching and science purposes is exempt
>> from punishment.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieg_Heil
>>
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