FW: [TheForge] oxy-propylene, propane tips and air-arc

Tue Jun 26 00:28:49 EDT 2007

Yup, you read me right.  If I had more shop space I'd setup a coal/coke forge.
Thanks for explaining the oxy enrichment plumbing -- sounds like a good addition
once I get a propane torch going.  I was guessing that propane/AIR might be hard
to get lit, and I think there was a similar comment about the fuel
saver (but they said
it should re-light fine if you use the fuel saver made for propane).
Not sure what
I'll do there, yet, but yeah, this is just for spot-heating after a
piece has been forged
as much as is possible.
I'll look into bubble alumina, but one question about the burner
nozzle -- you suggest building it into the refractory, instead of
using a stainless nozzle.  Won't it still have to have some sort of
metal nozzle?  I think I understand about building the burner into the
refactory -- the end of it would melt, I get that.  So I'm prolly just
confused on the terminology.  The end of the burner tube, where the
flame starts, should be built-in... the nozzle or jet as I'll call it,
the 00 or whatever-sized tiny hole to let the fuel through it set back
inside that, as usual... right?

thanks,

ben

On 6/24/07, Kathy <keporter at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathy [mailto:keporter at comcast.net]
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:18 PM
> To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] oxy-propylene, propane tips and air-arc
>
> Ben,
>
> I'm a little confused; it seemed that the discussion was on torches, which are
> either used for cutting or for fusion welding by most blacksmiths. I now realize
> that you are thinking more along the lines of general heating within forges, and
> specific heating jobs in special fixtures outside of forges, is this correct?
> For such work, I would not use any of the more expensive fuel gases (ex.
> propylene). Your conclusion is correct in this context; go with a miniforge.
>
>
>
> As to your question on whether or not I can "expound on any reasons *against*
> using non-enriched compressed air with propane," it's not an either or choice.
> Think of oxygen enrichment as the equivalent to an after burner on a jet plane;
> not something you use all the time, but very nice when you want to "get the h**l
> out of Dodge." Also, enrichment is necessary to the successful employment of
> fuel temperature boosting products like Chem-O-Lene.
>
>
>
> The way oxygen enrichment works is that a venturi mixer is connected to your
> compressed air line. You don't have to use it all the time. You don't even need
> to install it during the original construction process; it can easily be
> retrofitted into the air line.
>
>
>
> However, using enrichment may call for other changes:
>
> You would probably want to use bubble alumina as your refractory, at least in
> the area of flame impingement. You would also want to build the forge nozzle
> shape into the refractory rather than using an SS nozzle. Otherwise you are
> going to melt the nozzle right off the burner's end. Finally, look at this site
> for torch equipment appropriate to your stated interests--pay particular
> attention to their line of torch tips: http://nationaltorch.com/index.html
>
>
>
> Any more questions?
>
> Mikey
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> On Behalf Of Ben Barrett
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:24 PM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] oxy-propylene, propane tips and air-arc
>
>
>
> Thanks Mikey -- I'm just not convinved from what I read here that propylene
>
> will make things any easier for me.  The idea with propane and compressed
>
> air is based on the amount of BTU's I observe being cranked out of either of
>
> the venturi forge burners I have now, as well as my buddy's forced-air propane
>
> forge... I am also consider just making a mini-forge, since that could
>
> cover many
>
> of type situations where I want a more focused heat (more cheaply).
>
> Definately not made of money here, but prolly better-off than many folks...
>
> I've almost wiped out my tool budget now, and the biggest items I've come
>
> to acquire are the anvil ($200) and oxy/acet setup ($300), and I can't afford
>
> any bigger-ticket items until I get some nice commissions :)
>
>
>
> I figure a $500+ job would enable me to upgrade my torch setup
>
> in some way, so I'm trying to figure out if I should save up for the All-States
>
> or some other propane-specific torch... I need a bigger oxy tank if I'm going
>
> to use any substantial oxy, so that is an additional cost for me.
>
> I'm more inclined to rig up some kind of [mostly-] fixed burner, with
>
> an insulative
>
> baffle maybe, to do point heating with.  I still need all the
>
> experience I can get
>
> with the oxy/acet, I learn a lot each time, but it is not worth
>
> burning up unless
>
> I'm progressing on some project, it seems.
>
>
>
> BTW, can you expound on any reasons *against* using non-enriched compressed
>
> air with propane?  Again, no cutting needed/expected for that setup.
>
> Does it just
>
> not get rich enough of a mixture, before it blows out the flame?
>
> Then, what about
>
> using something like the classic hair-dryer blower with a small
>
> home-made burner,
>
> maybe on some sort of swing-arm frame (since I'd prolly over-build it
>
> too much to
>
> be handheld :)  -- sound feasible?
>
>
>
> One thing I'm still trying to understand, is how I might creatively
>
> deal with all the wasted
>
> heat, from both forge and torch.  Would working a torch within say a
>
> 3-sides insulative barrier
>
> help, or would that just be too unbearable, kicking back all the heat?
>
>
>
> Sorry for all the questions.  TheForge is so helpful, thanks everyone!
>
>
>
> ben
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/22/07, Kathy <keporter at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Ben,
>
> > I'd make that propylene and compressed air if you're going to delete oxygen
> use,
>
> > or  try oxygen enrichment of the compressed air. You can get venturi mixers
> for
>
> > enrichment from Carlisle Machine Works (you might just want to check out the
>
> > Unicon Hand Torch while visiting their site, unless you're made of money that
> is
>
> > :)
>
> > Mikey
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
>
> > On Behalf Of Ben Barrett
>
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 11:32 AM
>
> > To: Sponsored by ABANA
>
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] oxy-propylene, propane tips and air-arc
>
> >
>
> > So, propane has gotten a little more expensive since that
>
> > All-S...whatever FAQ price comparison was written up, but clearly it
>
> > could still be a big gain.  Right now I only have a couple small Oxy
>
> > tanks, so I wouldn't want to over-use that.  For basic spot-heating,
>
> > like fine-tuning twists and bends, can propane and compressed air be
>
> > used?  That sounds like the right price!!
>
> > I have a spare compressor tank (no motor or compressor) that I was
>
> > thinking of setting up just for that purpose... I don't care if I use
>
> > up a lot of compressed air, it is cheap :)
>
> >
>
> > So, if no cutting is done, does compressed air work well enough with
>
> > propane through an oxy/acet torch?  Should I still use tips made for
>
> > propane?
>
> > If this works, it would be an incredible boon, using mostly what I
>
> > already have, which we can all appreciate.  Seems unreal.
>
> >
>
> > ben
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On 6/22/07, Ron Childers <munlaw2 at hcsmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > A #2 Propane tip works pretty well on my big ol Smith torch that was made
>
> > > for oxy-ace. It cost about 12-15 $$ and cuts rr rail ok. Once the metal is
>
> > > hot it's the oxygen that does the cutting. The Allsnakes torch may be better
>
> > > but I would have to be convinced to spend the extra $635 when my torches
>
> > > work pretty well..
>
> > >
>
> > > I've had no problem switching from acetylene to propane and back again- not
>
> > > enough mixing of gasses to matter by the time the regulator is swapped and
>
> > > the torch is lit anyway.
>
> > >
>
> > > If you want to get nasty, quick & dirty, use an air-arc torch. Truly a
>
> > > matter of function over esthetics. It isn't pretty but does the job.
>
> > >
>
> > > Ron C
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> ...
>
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