[TheForge] RE: Tool Steel

David E. Smucker davesmucker at hotmail.com
Tue Dec 26 21:36:28 EST 2006 

Jerry,  What you see -- and material size you can't find is a common problem 
during times of high demand.  Special size, and the small sizes blacksmith 
like to use tend to leave the market place.  Why, because the producers want 
to run highest volume possible to make the most, and this means running just 
common sizes.

Another factor, bad times, always seen to proceed good times and bad times 
may force out the smaller specialty suppliers.  Sometimes smaller suppliers 
are family held companies and when the old man dies the company dies too. 
In the late 70's we purchase a special foil shear for making multi cuts from 
a master coil.  This was a several million dollar machine, and almost 
finished when the owner died.  He had given more that half of the company to 
a hospital and the rest to the kids.  No one wanted the business, neither 
the hospital or the kids, they just wanted money.  We had to go to court to 
get our machine, and in the end they just liquidated the company -- at about 
10 cents on the dollar.  We had not paid for the machine, we never did until 
it shipped but we still wanted it and paid for it when we got it -- but it 
sure was a mess at the time.

Special sizes and manufactures will re-enter the market, but it takes time 
often several years to see changes -- mean time you can't get what you need. 
So like you, folks find a way to supply their needs.  If they are good at it 
they many find that they can make money at it and soon they are suppling 
other folks with similar needs.

Dave Smucker
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Smith" <jerry_smith at anvilsandinkstudios.com>
To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] RE: Tool Steel


> Dave,
>
> These days I go around and scrounge what I can. With
> the complexity of the process to make steel, the
> falling a part of the steel production in the states.
> I have to look for the best deal that fits my needs.
>
> I have come across some really good deals, except the
> size of the pieces are bigger than the pickup trucks
> most of you guys drive can handle.
>
> I live in Steel Valley and the cost of steel here is
> higher and the scrap piles are smaller than when I
> live in a not steel producing big city.
>
> Right now I am looking for a 3/4 inch channel with the
> uprights at least an inch. must be strong but not too
> thick. This is to repair my two wheeler with a lift
> built in. Can find this sort of thing. I may have to
> forge it out, then machine it to fit.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
> --- "David E. Smucker" <davesmucker at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Stephen,
>>
>> I spend 32 years as an engineer in the basic metals
>> industry (in my case
>> aluminum, alumiini, or aluminium to you) but factors
>> effecting the price of
>> basic metals are the same whether steel, aluminum or
>> copper.  At the end of
>> the day it is really what is the demand and how
>> large is the supply.  But it
>> is not quite that simple.  Energy prices are a big
>> factor, in the case of
>> steel, the price of coal / coke and the price of
>> electricity.  But even if
>> the price of energy is high, if you can't sell it at
>> a price to cover the
>> cost of energy you can do one of two things sell
>> below cost or shut down and
>> don't sell at all.
>>
>> Now cost is not so simple -- you have two ways to
>> look at cost -- full cost
>> which includes your cash cost plus investment cost
>> plus profit.  When demand
>> is high, as it currently is world wide then you get
>> to charge full cost.  As
>> demand starts to drop, then you loose the profit
>> piece, but you still pay
>> your investment cost.  (The huge capital it took you
>> to build a steel mill.)
>> As demand drops more, you cover just cash costs --
>> wages, energy, raw
>> material.  As buyers of steel we like this last
>> case, except then mills
>> close, supply drops, demand rises and so does price.
>>  Price rises enough and
>> someone builds new plants.  On and on in an endless
>> cycle -- in the aluminum
>> industry we used to say during you working years you
>> would go through at
>> least 7 boom to bust cycles.  And yes some folks get
>> very rich in the good
>> years, and some really loose their butt in the bad
>> years.  Staying in
>> business means finding a balance, which includes not
>> charging too much in
>> the good times -- or someone will build a new (and
>> often better) plant and
>> force an over supply.
>>
>> Hope this makes some sense.  (I also know that we
>> will hear from some folks
>> on theforge that think this is all just "fixed" but
>> it isn't.  Yes from time
>> to time there are some bad actors such as ENRON, in
>> energy, but in the end
>> most if not all of these will fail -- but they do
>> cause much pain in the
>> process.)
>>
>> Dave Smucker
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Stephen Viola" <wombatforge at gmail.com>
>> To: <artgawk at thegrid.net>; "Sponsored by ABANA"
>> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] RE: Tool Steel
>>
>>
>> > Yeah it seems that both steel and coal have
>> decided to take a hike
>> > through the roof.. not sure why.. due to oil
>> prices or what??? if not
>> > it is always easy to blame it on oil anyway!
>> > I'm not that much of a market follower so I have
>> no real idea why the
>> > prices are escalating.
>> > Can anyone shed some light on that?
>> >
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> > On 24/12/06, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer
>> <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>> >> It's sorta academic Stephen...we all pay what we
>> have to. The era
>> >> of lovely cheap steel seems to be long gone.
>> >> Last time i bought a decent quantity of stock
>> steel it was less
>> >> than that by about 20%. That supplier doesn't
>> know that anything
>> >> other than A36 exists. Buy a small quantity and
>> pay through the
>> >> proverbial nose....pf
>> >>
>> >> Stephen Viola wrote:
>> >> > Hi all.. with all this talk about metal
>> suppliers it got me to
>> >> > thinking about a price comparison. Through the
>> college I study at we
>> >> > tend to convert everything into a kilo price
>> except for pipe/tubing.
>> >> > On average I'd say I pay about â,¬1 per kilo of
>> construction steel. Of
>> >> > course the prices change as soon as you are
>> looking at alloyed /
>> >> > carbon steels. But how does this price compare
>> with you guys?
>> >> >
>> >> > Stephen
>> >> >
>> >> > On 23/12/06, Chuck Robinson
>> <robi5515 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >> >> Thanks everyone for your recommendations i'm
>> checking them all out.
>> >> >> Chuck
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Bob Ehrenberger"
>> <eforge at centurytel.net>
>> >> >> To: "theforge" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> >> >> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:54 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [TheForge] RE: Tool Steel
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Chuck,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > We get our tool steel from Admeral Steel in
>> Chicago.
>> >> >> > They will work with you and don't mind small
>> orders.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Robert Ehrenberger
>> >> >> > Shelbyville, Mo.
>> >> >> > eforge at centurytel.net
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----Original Message----
>> >> >> > Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:47:15 -0600
>> >> >> > From: "Chuck Robinson"
>> <robi5515 at bellsouth.net>
>> >> >> > Subject: [TheForge] Tool steel source
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I need a source or sources for round and
>> square stock  W-1 and H-13
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > small
>> >> >> > quantities. The GCBA conference in February
>> is featuring Frank
>> >> >> Turley as
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > main demonstrator and he requires them for
>> his demo.
>> >> >> > Chuck
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> >> >> >
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> >> >> > theforge mail list group photo site is
>> >> >> > http://www.photoaccess.com
>> >> >> > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> >> >> > password:  anvil
>> >> >> > ___________
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> >> >>
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> >> >> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> >> >> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> >> >> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> >> >> password:  anvil
>> >> >> ___________
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> >> >
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> >> > theforge mail list group photo site is
>> >> > http://www.photoaccess.com
>> >> > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> >> > password:  anvil
>> >> > ___________
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
> _______________________________________________
> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoaccess.com
> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> password:  anvil
> ___________
>
>
>

More information about the TheForge mailing list