[TheForge] Brand Loyalty?

Tue Aug 22 17:48:46 EDT 2006

Ries,
Actually, you and others here are good examples of NOT trusting over-much in
brands, as your own words ("somewhat valuable") demonstrate. Yes, you think
better of some brands than others, as do I. But, you rely on careful
analysis as much as on past experience. This is fine. However, blind loyalty
is what I'm referring too; not that I'd ever expect to catch you in such a
mistake. My statement was general, and was aimed at pointing out the perils
of brand loyalty to people who haven't had decades of experience;
essentially, to newbies.
Mikey 

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ries Niemi
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:27 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Brand Loyalty?

Elucidate, please.

My experience has been that in industrial tools, brand loyalty is still 
somewhat valuable.
For example, I have never had a problem with any of my Miller welders 
being less than satisfactory.
I was somewhat disappointed in my $2500 Miller Spectrum 500 Plasma 
cutter, which I bought in 1992- I feel that Miller is not as good a 
plasma cutter producer as they are a welding machine producer, and 
certainly not as good as Thermal Dynamics or Hypertherm- but I would 
have brand loyalty to either of these companies, as I trust anything 
with either name on it to be a quality machine.

Similarly, I trust inherently Starrett precision machinist tools, or 
Lenox blades, or Peddinghaus anything, from a hammer to a half million 
dollar beam drilling and shear line. I trust BPR, which is an Italian 
company that I own a set of power angle rolls from- I have toured their 
factory, and would trust any of their products. All the Emglo 
compressors I have ever seen were a good buy. Never seen a bad product 
from Klein tools. Jancy, Scotchman, Ellis, and Hardinge are all 
goodun's as well.
Off Center Tool- Grant can be trusted to make the highest quality stuff.
In fact, I could easily come up with a list of 50 or so industrial 
suppliers of tooling, machines, and equipment that I can recommend 
without reservation
- with one caveat-
and that is that many of them, including Starrett, have a new, low 
priced, made in China, teaser line of products, which I would avoid.

In any purchase, particularly one involving serious simoleans, research 
is a must- and I would not recommend blind purchasing based solely on 
name. But there are still plenty of very upstanding companies that you 
can trust- in the industrial field.

Consumer goods, and consumer electronics, well thats another thing 
altogether. Although I must say I have never had a lemon from Apple 
Computer.

ries
On Aug 22, 2006, at 11:37 AM, Michael wrote:

> One of the more interesting aspects of tooling discussions is the 
> light they
> shine on the importance of correct philosophy. In other words, what 
> works
> and what wrecks; this is philosophy's bottom line after all. I believe 
> that
> customer loyalty actually constitutes a problem for manufacturers, as 
> it
> only provides a temptation these days--not a reason to behave 
> responsibly.
> We understand that reckless abandon in trying to save money leads to 
> poor
> tool choices, but how many of us stop to consider that brand loyalty 
> is now
> every bit as inappropriate?
> Mikey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:13 AM
> To: artgawk at thegrid.net; Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Induction Forge?
>
> Yes, this sort of thing only helps the bottom line in the short term.
>
> Steve
>
> Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>
>>  Steve;
>> I've got to think that Lincoln isn't the company it used to be and
>> corporate short term thinking has screwed it too.
>> Kinda hard on a customer's loyalty...Pete F
>>
>> Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Pete, I don't understand how Lincoln can get away with that. Bad
>>> craziness on their part.
>>>
>>> Chips are pretty cheap to stockpile (for a manufacturer, I mean).
>>> Running out/unavailable isn't a valid excuse, it is poor planning.
>>>
>>> My two cents.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reis is right of course..i was just pipe dreaming again.
>>>> In fact, i have a sort of horror of buying any welding machine with
>>>> modern electronics in it. Little teeny, fragile chips and big 
>>>> surging
>>>> and sputtering electro-magnetic fields...what a combination!
>>>> How are we gonna get replacement chips for them when they are 20
>>>> years old?
>>>> The main PC card for my Lincoln Idealarc 250/250 is no longer
>>>> available. It's my newest welding machine.The chips for many 
>>>> vehicles
>>>> are no longer available. Look under the hood of so many machines and
>>>> all there is to be seen is electronics and plastic.
>>>> Looks like the prelude to a disaster.
>>>> Another one.
>>>> Course when it happens, we'll be well positioned.
>>>> Only a few chips in my anvil.....Pete F
>>>>
>>>> Jerry Frost wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Egglayingwoolmilkpig? I don't even want a picture! <grin> Great 
>>>>> term.
>>>>>
>>>>> We're on the same page regarding doitall machines. Something that
>>>>> does everything does nothing well.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I don't know much about electricity I do understand there are
>>>>> different types in ways I don't grasp. What I do know is I already
>>>>> have a Lincoln Ranger 9, multi process welder that will indeed do
>>>>> most welding processes but requires modules or additional pieces to
>>>>> do some.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was just thinking an electricity massaging unit might be an
>>>>> alternative.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Frosty
>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>> If it ain't forged
>>>>> it ain't real.
>>>>> Wrought iron is.
>>>>> The FrostWorks
>>>>>
>>>>> Meadow Lakes, AK.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.artmetalradio.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Ries Niemi" <rniemi at fidalgo.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not a big fan of "all in one" designs for anything- the combo
>>>>>> brake/shear/rolls are garbage, the lathe/milling machines are 
>>>>>> crap,
>>>>>> the shopsmith is an amusing idea that does nothing well-
>>>>>> But the closest I come is my inverter welder- it will run a mig
>>>>>> wire feeder head, tig weld, or stick weld, all better than the
>>>>>> older, standalone machines I also have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, and its a big but- even though it all looks alike- there are
>>>>>> different types of electricity- and what you need for welding- my
>>>>>> tig inverter is usually putting out 170 amps at 25 volts or so- is
>>>>>> drastically different than what you would need for a induction
>>>>>> forge. Cant remember Grants explanation of the output, but its
>>>>>> night and day from what a tig welder puts out.
>>>>>> It would be kinda like saying my lawnmower and my Cat D9 are both
>>>>>> powered by internal combustion engines, so why not combine the
>>>>>> functions of the two?
>>>>>> Yes, it could probably be done- and it would do each job worse,
>>>>>> cost more, and have inherent design flaws that are just about
>>>>>> insurmountable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The germans have a word for this- they would call it an
>>>>>> "egglayingwoolmilkpig"-  something that tries to do everything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am all for buying an inverter power supply- but so far, the only
>>>>>> ones that both weld and plasma cut are funky no name chinese
>>>>>> imports- and they dont have either Grant Sarver, or Kaynes 
>>>>>> standing
>>>>>> behind them.
>>>>>> I will buy a no name chinese induction forge from Grant, but not
>>>>>> from some guy on ebay who cant tell an oscilloscope from a
>>>>>> stethescope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My welders are either red or blue. They work, parts are available,
>>>>>> most are made in the USA- (all millers, most lincolns).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Experiments are fine for hor d'ourves- not for welders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ries
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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Ries Niemi
Industrial Artist

http://www.RiesNiemi.com

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