[TheForge] counterfeit bolts and steel

[Andrew Vida]

terry l. ridder wrote:

> how would the average person be able to determine whether or not the
> bolts or steel is actually what it claims to be? are those grade 8 bolts
> really grade 8 bolts or just a cheap knockoff?

	Often the differences can be seen in the surface.  I cannot explain to 
you how I do it, and I'm sure there are many other people who can do the 
same, but often I can tell the quality of an item such as this just by 
looking at the surface finish.  If you replace a proper steel for such a 
bolt with crap, then I suspect your problem may be worse.  All I can 
suggest is to find a reliable supplier and stick with them.  Another 
thing you can do, I suppose, it build your own rig for testing bolts to 
failure.  If they break at the torque to which their design spec calls, 
then you have the real thing.  If the application for which they are 
being used is critical enough that you have to even think about the 
issue, then I would say that such testing is worth the time spent.  An 
adjustable test rig should be pretty easy to cobble up, if perhaps a bit 
time consuming, but I'd rather do that than have a machine fail 
catastrophically and ijnure someone.

 > is the tool steel really the tool steel you specified?

	That becomes a far thornier issue.  Ask for a copy of the analysis of 
the batch from which the steel came.  If a supplier won't or can't give 
it to you, perhaps you need to find a new supplier.
> 
> is the metal you specified really what was delivered?

	See above.  When you get such a sheet, and when the invoice states 
specifically and accurately that the steel you ordered is in fact the 
steel delivered, the supplier is pledging to you that it is in fact so 
and is assuming first line responsibility for it.  Anyone that's been in 
business a while and holds a good reputation is unlikely to purposely 
pull a switch on you.  Replacing one material with another could prove 
disastrous, causing injury or even death.  I surely would not want to be 
on the hot seat for such liability, civil or possibly otherwise.

The question becomes whether the mill is doing the right thing.  Does 
Swami in India care if he's sending out righteous steel?  I'm inclined 
to suppose that he does, but I don't know enough about that industry and 
those aspects of the business cultures that use the product to say that 
getting caught would pretty much bury their operation.  People are funny 
that way, in that they will tolerate things that don't make sense to 
tolerate.  Just look at US politics (no OT thread starting here)

If an Indian mill did wrong and someone here died because of lousy 
product, what could the injured party do?  I don't think you can sue a 
company in India without going there.  Short of hiring Nick and Vito to 
take care of the problem the old fashioned way, you might be stuck, so I 
suppose the onus is on the buyer.  Caveat Emptor, and all that.

Funny though, that for my first 20 years of metal working I never felt 
any need to think about such issues too much.  Funny how in those days 
we made out own steel.  Could there be a connection?
> 
> now related to the above. would it be possible to build a homebrew auger
> mass spectrograph? what type of analysis and/or testing would be needed
> to ensure that the bolts and metals are really what they claim to be?
> could this analysis and/or testing be done in the hobby environment?

	Hey, perhaps there would be a market for such a spectrograph, were it 
inexpensive, easy to use, and reliable.