[TheForge] Re: guardrails and handrails

[Ralph Sproul]

        Bob, This is a good point on "new things"........ The studies,
examples, new tools you have to make, jigs or fixtures that need making, and
pondering which sample to use in trying to create the desired effect of your
forgings ............ I've found to be about 25-30% of the job.   I didn't
used to charge for this, but realize now that no matter how many custom jobs
you do........you still have to go thru this to get the results you want.

        I've sort of kept track of the time during the past few large jobs
that I was "researching" and the actual time I spent on making the approved
and decided upon part with said fixtures, tools, and forging sequence
developed to get there.  This is where I'm coming up with the 1/4-1/3 of the
time estimate.

        It seems to apply to most stages of the job as well.  Selecting
stock size for studies and trying them out to see what results, actual
forging of a shape and making tools, jigs, and fixtures, how to rivet that
particular shape or use mechanical fasteners on the element so they will
look good or be hidden, how to clean, sand, file, etch, that area to the
desired look, what finish looks the best and is working, how to ship, pack,
and move the items involved, and installation tools is another fitting end
to the same question of what you need to have on hand when you go.

        This of course magnifies when you do first a rail, then a fireplace
accessory, then a hardware job, then a trellis..........as all those tools
you used on the prior job get put away and you gotta refigure what you need
for each direction you head in.  If you do nothing but rails, you stand a
chance at keeping the installation tools to the required volume, and I say
volume, as you never seem to have enough stuff to do installations -because
the electrician is now finished where he wasn't before, and the sheetrock or
plaster is up painted and trimmed, and the rugs or finished floor are now in
place and you need to keep from screwing those all up on top of getting done
what you need to do.

        Of course you can whimp out and let someone else install your work,
but you miss part of the ........how should we say this?  "Education or
Experience" of the whole thing.   :-)   I do find if you convey some sort of
"hardware kit of instructions" for an installing contractor - along with the
driver that the fasteners were forged with......really makes a good
impression on the contractor going to a job to do an install on your custom
piece.
     He looks proficient, he has an idea of how you figured on approaching
the install......and this all comes from doing a few of them yourself.  I
think folks who just let someone else do all their installations are missing
part of the education of improving your work to account for installation.

        Time and materials is how I figure it.  The materials are easy as
you order at least 10% more than you need for screw ups and multiples to
choose the best "required number" for your customer.
        The way I figure time is usually figured by hours or days for
smaller jobs and weeks for large ones.  The longest job I've had so far is
two months, so eight weeks led to the $10,000 price tag and I felt good
about a nice portfolio picture and a $1,000 per week and materials paid.  I
should have maybe charged more as a well known shop or person with an
excellent reputation could demand, but I was pleased with being able to take
on a large custom job and at least do fairly well on my paid time and feel
I'm getting my foot in the door of the game.  I am finding the more "nice
pictures" in the portfolio and the more work customers have seen - does cut
down on the "qualifying you" as a believable craftsman that can execute the
job to more than what the customer expected.


Ralph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Ehrenberger" <eforge at marktwain.net>
To: "theforge" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 1:46 AM
Subject: [TheForge] Re: guardrails and handrails


> If I am asked to do a project that is new ground for me I bid it as T&M.
> I'd rather loose the project than screw up by pulling a number out my a**.
>
> In Francis Whitiker's book he said that he always bid T&M.  If the
customer
> insisted on a fixed cost bid he would give them an outragous number, and
> then bill them T&M which would be less.
>
> I know I don't have the reputation or abilitys of Francis, but I've under
> bid enough times to realise new things always take longer than expected.
>
> Robert Ehrenberger
> Shelbyville, Mo.
>
> ++++  Original Message   ++++
> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:58:37 -0700
> From: "Gladish Family" <gladish at cnw.com>
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] Re: guardrails and handrails
>
> On the other hand, if you're not making your rate and paying for
materials,
> might as well call it a hobby.
> I know, that wasn't the question...I sure don't have a R.O.T. besides
> "more."
> Andy g.
>
>
> >
> > Gladish Family wrote:
> >
> > > Bidding? T & M or bust!
> >
> > These days, you'll usually go bust before getting T&M. :)
>
>
>
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